1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
First Direct Evidence of Neuroinflammation - 'Encephalitis' - in ME/CFS
A small study with just nine patients has captured the attention of patients and researchers alike after reporting direct evidence of inflammation in the brain of ME/CFS patients. The finding was one of the highlights picked out by Professor Anthony Komaroff in his IACFS/ME...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Felt like I was on speed, too much high energy from Fred's protocol?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Martial, Mar 13, 2014.

  1. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    678
    Likes:
    472
    Ventura, CA
    Hey guys I was just curious if anyone else ever had a similar reaction to Fred's protocol... I recently had in the past few days been feeling way better and with normal person energy again... This was after at least a few weeks on the methylation protocol but last night it was really almost too much.. I had this feeling like I would never fall asleep and felt like my body was just vibrating internally like crazy, the few days before I also noticed I could get by with much less sleep and feel fine, as well as feeling like each morning I wake up that it felt like I was just picking up back from where I was when I fell asleep... Kind of like I just took a twenty minute nap rather then feeling disoriented and groggy in the morning.. However one other thing was I had a very severe feeling of wired on the inside but a zombie on the outside with it all.. My body was exhausted from all the lyme treatment and detoxing but inside I felt very energetic and I thought I would literally never fall asleep lol...

    As of now I use the methyl b12, ado b12, L Carnatine, and methyl folate all in pretty high doses, as well as NT factor with no add ons, CoQ10, and PQQ.. Personally I feel like maybe having the PQQ with everything else is just too much maybe? I think this all started happening shortly after adding it in but I have always been told of the very positive benifits of PQQ, and it doesn't really have any interactions.. The only thing I can think of is the combo of Fred's protocol with the CoQ10 and PQQ is maybe just TOO MUCH cellular support? Is it possible to over do it? I know what I mentioned sounds positive in a lot of aspects but it is really veering on too uncomfortable for me.. The wired and tired feeling being really severe is the worse, as well as the explosive agitation and other emotional moodiness stuff.

    I should also keep in mind I have a large majority of symptoms from the lyme disease as well as the treatment side effects I am on. So sometimes it is really hard to tell what comes, from what...

    Anyways just wondering if anyone has experienced similar or has any advice on this! Thanks!

    Todd
  2. justy

    justy Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,415
    Likes:
    2,194
    U.K
    Hi Martial, I think that many people on here have reported feeling wired and nasty from too high doses on either Rich or Fredds protocols. I have tried neither but had a similar reaction from just MB12 and had to take much lower doses.

    Hopefully someone with more experience in this area will chime in soon. But my best suggestion would be to lower the dosage until it is comfortable. I think you can overdrive methylation, but not sure of this is what you are experiencing.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/over-driving-the-methylation-cycle.17889/
    Martial likes this.
  3. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,198
    Likes:
    1,267
    Tundras of Europa
    Yeah, if I take those supps in high doses I get wired too. I've read countless reports from other with similar experiences.
    Martial and justy like this.
  4. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    678
    Likes:
    472
    Ventura, CA
    Yeah I am definitely gonna slow it down, just found it helpful to use higher doses to really start up methylation and to break through any methyl trapping... I also wanted to use higher doses because it is more healing and penetrating into the CNS system where I do have a lot of issues with lyme and this can help protect my nerves and heal things. I just get WAY too emotional with it and most the effects that are intense are mental and cognitive, my body doesn't feel tired at all but rather super revved up, while emotions can get really agitated or overtly reactive, and really severe feeling of mental tiredness.. weird stuff but yeah will definitely just keep it in moderation for now!

    Thanks for help!
    justy likes this.
  5. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

    Messages:
    537
    Likes:
    196
    CoQ10 and carnitine have always been too overstimulating for me and always caused insomnia. But I never tried them as part of a methylation protocol. With mb12 my reaction has been variable over time, whilst methyl folate always neutral. On the other hand Rich's protocol suited me best. In my experience a wired energetic feeling it's never based on true or actual cellular energy (which in my case has always come with a sense of wellbeing) and it can lead to a crash.
    justy and Martial like this.
  6. Allyson

    Allyson *****

    Messages:
    1,684
    Likes:
    667
    Australia, Melbourne
    sounds like what happened to e when my doctor tried me on dexamphetamine - felt very racy and hyped, then crashed badly the next day....Strong coffee has the same effect on me too.

    Ally
    Martial likes this.
  7. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    678
    Likes:
    472
    Ventura, CA

    Yeah I figured with the methylation supplements and the CoQ10, with PQQ combined just drove the system a little too hard...

    I am not too sure though, I was doing substantially well before on the methylation protocol and doses I was using but I think its also possible that it was the Olive Leaf Extract I had introduced for the lyme that made me have such weird symptoms... Seems to be more of a herx now, especially seeing the similar patterns to my herxing in the past... I just didn't realize how unstably emotional herxing makes me feel lol.. There was also increased neurological pain where It felt like I pinched a bunch of different nerves, exhaustion, and feeling like I am losing it or going crazy. The worst symptoms were all mental and cognitive though... I am using a bunch of de tox things, and other ways of supporting my body though... I think I may have just killed a lot of spirochetes at once in my brain and caused way too much toxins to be released. Alongside some common symptoms of over methylation... I agree I usually feel with correct methylation I feel a deep sense of well being, and I can always kind of just intuitively tell when I am doing it right or not.. What is working and what is not..

    It felt like I was having temporal seizures in a sense as well.. strange stuff... Anways just going to lower doses of the supps, remove everything but what I use for lyme treatment and the bare essentials of Fred's protocol, as well as being careful not to over herx.

    Thanks for the tips everyone!
    justy likes this.
  8. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    678
    Likes:
    472
    Ventura, CA
    Just out of curiosity on the topic of sublingual vitamin b's I have a massively irratated tongue, the part under the tongue where I used to let it dissolve.. Has anyone else had this kind of reaction? I was using the jarrows b12 and adeno b12 that Fred Recommends.. The ingredients are also nothing really that harsh, the only thing I could think of is the citric acid maybe? I know thats bad for the enamals but I feel like I am getting a contact allergic response to something in it..
  9. CFS_for_19_years

    CFS_for_19_years Senior Member

    Messages:
    216
    Likes:
    185
    Washington State
    I don't recall if it was the mB12 or the adenoB12, but when I put it under my upper lip, it dripped down onto my front tooth where I developed a cavity and had to go to the dentist to have it filled. There are reports of others here saying that the B12 somehow erodes tooth enamel and beware!

    Once when I wanted to take the B12 paste out of my mouth so I could chew or swallow something else, the B12 stuck to my finger and I scraped it off, but even so, it eventually took the SKIN off my finger in a day or two and really HURT. There is something in those B12s that is corrosive. I don't really care what the chemical is, but if I'm going to do the B12 trickle-dose under-the-gum trick again, the B12 will go under the LOWER lip, where hopefully it will stay off my lower teeth. B12 is too large a molecule to be absorbed sublingually, so keeping the B12 in your mouth just keeps the dose at a slow trickle into your stomach where it is eventually absorbed. Truth. I have no links to share, just what I remember reading.
  10. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    678
    Likes:
    472
    Ventura, CA

    I knew it! what happened to your finger is exactly what happened to my toungue then! lol

    I do injections so maybe I will just stick the methyl injections and not go so heavy on the sublinguals.. I can't really afford to do those every other day though.. Sure I will figure something out but my tongue will definitely not allow any more of it under the tongue.. It burns like hell every time i use it!

    Thanks for the tips!

    lol
  11. CFS_for_19_years

    CFS_for_19_years Senior Member

    Messages:
    216
    Likes:
    185
    Washington State
    I'm taking a lot of the same supplements you are: NT factor, CoQ10, PQQ, B vitamins and I've had some time to think about your situation. I find that I can only take PQQ early in the day (before 1 p.m.) otherwise it will keep me awake. If I happen to take it between 11 a.m. and 1 p.m. I only take 10mg, whereas I'll take the full dose of 20mg if I take it before 11 a.m. You will need to be the best judge of what dose works best for you and what your cut-off times will be. Get a pill cutter and cut them those PQQ's into whatever dose suits you best.

    I find I'm much more alert and able to carry on a conversation while on PQQ. It takes away a lot of drowsiness.

    I've recently been experimenting with taking CoQ10 at every meal (200mg in a.m., 100mg at lunch, 100mg at dinner) and I don't think it's bothering me or keeping me awake, although you may react differently.

    Be sure to take all of your B vitamins before 2 p.m., otherwise that can make you stay awake too, just like coffee would. There are some B vitamins that assist melatonin at night, but I'm not going to get into that discussion right now.

    I've been wondering about the same sensation of feeling like I'm vibrating internally and not knowing what it is. It's not pleasant at all. I'm going to cut back a little on the PQQ (maybe just 10mg/day) and see what that does. I'll report back in a few days.

    I don't know if there is such a thing as too much cellular support, but the more I read about supplements and vitamins, the more I realize that in supraphysiologic doses, they can act as drugs and hence have unexpected side effects. I think our bodies don't know what to do with the excess PQQ and so we have side effects that healthy people wouldn't notice. It might actually be our impaired cellular machinery that doesn't take up the excess PQQ so it gets dumped outside the cell. This is all guesswork on my part.

    According to examine.com,
    http://examine.com/supplements/Pyrroloquinoline quinone/

    "Higher than normal oral doses in rodents seem to also enhance peripheral neurogenesis (nerve growth outside of the brain) but not necessarily in the brain."

    This vibration sensation feels very similar to nerve pain as I already have some nerve pain (neuropathy) in my lower legs, so I have something to compare it to. Freddd does talk sometimes talking about the nerves waking up with his protocol, so I don't know if he's describing the same thing. His protocol does not include PQQ.

    It would be very easy for you to stop the PQQ for a day or two, then restart it at a low dose and proceed from there.

    I've found I do my best sleuthing when I chart and record what I take every day. I do it for all my meds and a few supplements at a time. I also use it as a kind of pain diary too as I record how much Vicodin I've had to take on any given day. My doctor loves it! (Not saying all doctors would.)
  12. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    678
    Likes:
    472
    Ventura, CA

    Wow very imformative thank you so much! I will just try it out like you suggested.. To be honest I am becoming more convinced it was a herx reaction that triggered all of this rather then the cellular support stuff... The methylation protocol always made me feel a tiny bit agitated, or feeling like I am coming out of my skin at times, but usually these things are pretty minor and easy to quench with some Niacin...

    The thing that happened to me was already feeling those little effects from methylation COMBINED with severe herxing from my lyme treatment which will inflame all sorts of different processes in the body and make the nerves super sensitized from ammonia.. This can make anything that is already present become intensified time 1000! Lol, Before I was on proper treatment and using things to ease the herxes I thought my herxes was my mind was gonna snap and one time even went into an admission office of a psych ward.

    They wouldn't take me in because I wasn't suicidal or homicidal but holy crap did I feel like I was off the deep end that day hahaha.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page