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Feeling stuck, sick and need some help please

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Matt_C, Jan 18, 2016.

  1. Matt_C

    Matt_C Senior Member

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    Hi,

    First of all, sorry for the graphic content here but i'm having some issues with my bowel movements. It's a bit embarrassing but I need some advice please.

    I've been feeling very poorly the last few days and i'm struggling to figure out what I need to do. Three days ago I increased my MB12 dose from 5mg to 9mg, then the next day I took 10mg. I seemed to have stabilised on 5mg dose and the extra produced some more startup, especially neurological startup with some strange visual stuff going on. I also ramped methylfolate up fairly quickly to 2200mcg over a few days from around 800-1200mcg.

    On the first day of titrating up the MB12 and methylfolate I had some diarrhea with undigested food in it. I had five bowel movements, each getting softer and looser and closer to diarrhea. The second day I had much the same thing. Yesterday I only too 3mg MB12 and one B-right with 400mcg methylfolate and no more. I was feeling extremely tired and wiped out for most of the day. I had taken 1/2 an antihistamine the night before to help with sleep so I expected a little of this feeling, but this was extreme. My bowl movements improved though, with just one fairly normal motion in the morning. Then today, i'm feeling much the same. I took 4mg MB12 and took some more methylfolate, 1200mcg today. I had plenty of sleep but feeling extremely tired and wiped out and strange. Very "spacey" etc. And I had three bowel movements in the morning with the last one diarrhea. I had to come home from work, shouldn't have even gone in really. I took some extra potassium throughout the days to no apparent effect, but I don't think my symptoms indicate that I need potassium as i'm not having any muscle issues.

    I can't figure out what's causing the diarrhea and this excessive spacey/sleepy problem. It's like the food I put in to my body almost passes straight through, with some digestion mind you. The Jarrow and Enzy B12's both contain xylitol and mannitol, sugar alcohols that are known to causes diarrhea in a lot of people, but i've looked around these forums and don't see too many people having an issue with it. Is it more likely from too much methylfolate? I'm still unsure whether I need methylfolate or not, can't figure out whether i'm over or under methylated or just methylating well. I obviously need B12 though but i'm not sure about the doses. I've also read that B12 can cause diarrhea as a common side effect. I'll be experimenting over the next week but dropping the Jarrow and Enzy and replacing with my bioceuticals brand Mb12 that has no sugar alcohols, and by ramping up methylfolate and see what happens. But if anyone has any ideas I would be very grateful to hear of them.

    Thanks,

    Matt
     
  2. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    There are gut bacteria that utilize B12, folate, and sugar alcohols for growth.

    That can cause diarrhea.

    The hard part is finding which bacteria are growing.
     
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  3. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    @Matt_C

    I didn't know about it being a side effect of b12. I am no expert on methylation. I had over a decade of IBS-A though. So I know how bad if feels when something like this happens. I'm sorry its happening to you.

    All I can suggest is backing off and messaging someone who is good on methylation.

    But that is just me writing the thing that seems sensible, I do not know if it is the thing that is right.

    Good luck.
     
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  4. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    That's a lot of methyl groups you're taking in a short amount of time. Methyls cause all sorts of metabolic reactions including detoxing. My guess would be that too much is happening in your body too quickly from taking so much mB12 and mfolate.

    @Matt_C
     
  5. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Seconded.

    @Matt_C It seems like you have cranked the methyl supplements too fast. They can cause pretty strong reactions if you already have problems in that area.

    It has taken many months to many people here to be able to build up their dosage from tiny amounts. I would recommend to start with 50-100mcg of both folate and B12 and see if you can tolerate them without any side effects. That's your goal, good tolerance and no strange problems :)

    Then you can move up slowly, over the course of multiple weeks, always keeping an eye on your symptoms and giving your body the time to adjust. Impatience can be your worst enemey here... haste made me double the dose too quickly and cause so many problems. Then I got scared and thought this was not for me.

    Fortunately I finally restarted with a much slower pace and my body didn't protest no more... :)

    my 2c
     
  6. Matt_C

    Matt_C Senior Member

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    Ok so if I have taken too much in the way of methyl donors, from what i've gathered here niacin should help me to feel better, right? I'll heed the advice and back off the MB12 and folate for a few days then re-start at lower doses.
     
  7. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    When my husband gets IBS-D it is usually low copper and /or low B2.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2016
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  8. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    Yeah in theory niacin should help. I would just cut out the methylfolate completely and start with just MB12 and see how it goes for a while. Too much folate is usually the main problem in over-driving the methylation cycle rather than too much MB12 from my experience.
     
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  9. 5150

    5150 Senior Member

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    No methylation expert here, but a long-time "IBS type" symptoms veteran.

    When this exact symptom started 1 1/2 years ago in me, I went after it with B12 & Vit D emulsion. Big Help.

    The product that helped the most was (and is) VSL #3 probiotic mixture. Easiest thing is just to google it. It will explain the benefits and where to get it, if you decide to try it. There are other good probiotics I know, but this is the one that helped me through IBS out of control.

    Best wishes.
     
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  10. Matt_C

    Matt_C Senior Member

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    Thanks all for your input. I took some niacin today and reduced MB12 to 1250mg and folate to 200mcg in the B-right. I'll drop that tomorrow as well and start with the basics. I took an additional 100mcg niacin and started to feel some neurological improvement within an hour or so.

    I'm struggling to figure out what my symptoms mean. I've seen this post where Fredd groups symptoms several times and don't know how to apply it to me. I really have no idea what Group 2a symptoms mean, but he mentions diarrhea here:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/diet-and-freddds-protocol.41948/

    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

    And again in Group 3 symptoms:

    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency
    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue,IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS –Normal alternating with constipation, IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.


    So it appears to me that it's possible my symptoms were due to too little methylfolate. Freddd writes a lot about the need to increase methylfolate to extremely high levels, as high as 30,000mcg as soon as day three when the "donut hole folate deficiency" symptoms start, which is why I decided to ramp up so quickly. He says that ramping up is necessary to ensure there is sufficient methylfolate to keep the healing going. @whodathunkit also writes about needing high doses of methylfolate to keep symptoms under control. But then many other people write about the need to start low and go slow, in fact probably more people say this. I've backed off and i'm feeling better and felt better after taking some niacin so I guess these are clues that I should progress more slowly. I didn't feel awful on lower doses either, so I guess these are the clues for me. But I also need healing to start because i'm not well and need to be better. I think I need reasonably high doses of MB12 though but i'll work back up and observe my symptoms.

    I find this all extremely confusing and hard to manage. I feel like giving up because it's all too much for me. I've been trying to get well for so very long and now i'm on what feels like yet another merry-go-round. And even once I figure out my methylation issues, that may not be the entire story and then I have no real clue what to do. My doctor isn't terribly knowledgeable and she follows most of what Ben Lynch says. She wants to give me glutathione injections which i'm going to go ahead with soon. I know Freddd doesn't recommend it, but my symptoms are different to his and my doctor has seen some wonderful results with it. Sigh...
     
  11. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    This is a choice you have to make for yourself. Self-education and self-knowledge is key to succeeding, even with a doctor's guidance.

    When I started methylation I already had couple years' "foundation" of being remineralized and supporting my thyroid and adrenals. I had loaded magnesium and other minerals for years, used iodine, and some other things. I took and still take adrenal glandulars every day, and I've been doing this for probably seven years. Just to give an example of what I say by foundation. So when I started methylation, I did not have to correct some of the problems that cause others grief, such as extreme endocrine problems or chronic or induced vitamin or mineral deficiencies.

    The way our health gets degraded and the reasons for it are so very, very many. Genetics, viruses, infections, inadvertent environmental insults, pharmaceuticals, poor lifestyle choices, bad nutrition, etc. It's an incredibly complex topic for the individual to manage themselves, it's IMO no wonder that most doctors can't give very good guidance to other people.

    That said, I believe relief is achievable. Maybe not outright "cure" but symptoms can be made much better and some percentage of recovery is doable for many if not most. That is a belief, BTW, not a statement of fact that I am obliged to prove to anyone. Call it a "glass half full" outlook. :)

    My personal opinion is that going low and slow is more a way to keep the bad sides at bay rather than a way to make real progress. But I know from experience that sometimes you do have to back off and go slower or life just isn't worth living. IMO the key is finding the balance between going as fast as you can live with, but still being able to live with the sides. For myself, things that give me insomnia get tweaked really, really fast. I cannot put up with lack of sleep. But things that make me crash with flu-like symptoms I usually try to push through, within the caveat that if it goes on more than a week I would start to pull back and take a look at whether it was beneficial or harmful. Thankfully, I always seemed to be at least showing minor improvement after a week of a flu crash, and I always was better after recovering from the crash than I was before it.

    But these are the types of choices that the individual has to make, and then live with the outcome of the choices.

    Bad sides can also be a product of the chronic or induced vitamin and mineral deficiencies. You may actually be better off starting somewhere else like trying to work on your gut, or on known endocrine problems, or just experimenting with some minerals like magensium, to perhaps correct any pre-existing deficiencies before "revving yourself up" with methylation supps. Again, that is your choice.

    I can't emphasize enough the need to read, read, read. It is frustrating and confusing, but if you don't give up it comes clearer over time. And most people who don't give up do get some degree of improvement, even if small.

    Hope that helps a little bit. :)
     
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  12. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    The two things are not necessarily in contradiction, imho.

    When I started taking folate and B12 I could only tolerate small doses... anything else would have just caused more harm than good. Once again... you may need to let your body adjust.

    These days I take pretty high doses of B vitamins, especially the "usual duo", methylfolate (4-5mg/day) and B12 (10-15mg/day). I thought it was too much and experimented by lowering the doses but I saw several symptoms coming back in 2-3 weeks, so I most definitely need those amounts and I am still trying to see if there's any benefit in taking even more...

    So yeah... patience and experimentation are in order and since it may take a while, keeping a journal with dosages and evolution of symptoms may help you figure out what is best for you.

    Also keep in mind that once you have dealt with the basics (B12 and folate) you will likely need a B complex to keep a proper balance among the vitamins in the family and some other co-factors (e.g. magenisum, zinc, potassium) depending on your specific situation.

    In my case zinc was crucial, while I've never had issues with potassium or magnesium. Go figure!

    cheers
     
  13. Matt_C

    Matt_C Senior Member

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    So last night when it was time for bed I was feeling very alert and awake and didn't think i would be able to drop off to sleep for a few hours. I took about 100mg of niacinamide and within 20 minutes I was asleep. Today im feeling pretty good. I took some more niacinamide along with c, d, e and omega 3, 2500mcg mb12, 2500mcg adb12, and 25mg p5p. With the mb12 i took 2500mcg of the bioceuticals brand because it dissolves very quickly (20 minutes or so) and i figure that dose might be equivalent to 1000mcg or less of the Enzy. My perception is I provoked a significant healing reaction with the high doses of b12 and mthf because I feel better than before all that started. Most of my symptoms are neurological at the moment, with some minor gut issues that become quite severe with high doses. I'm feeling really positive now, in control again. Thanks again team :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2016
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  14. Matt_C

    Matt_C Senior Member

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    I spoke too soon. Shortly after I wrote the above message I became nauseous and a little dizzy and had some hypoglycemia type symptoms which I've had in the past...extremely hungry and light headed that persisted for an hour after I ate something. Still feeling similarly after lunch. I took a small amount of thiamine as i read low thiamine can cause these sorts of symptoms. I guess this is just the way it's going to go until, and if, I become stable.
     
  15. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    light-headed might be potassium. I don't see it mentioned here, though I might have missed it. Feeling good, then having symptoms might suggest trying potassium. some can get away just with bananas or coconut water. Others need significantly more. good luck.
     
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  16. Matt_C

    Matt_C Senior Member

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    Thanks @ahmo. I had some potassium with me and took about 350mg in a glass of water. I took it at 3pm, was about to go home from work due to the crash but within about 20 minutes I noticed some improvement then by about 40-50 minutes my symptoms were tolerable again. So it looks like i need potassium. Slowly figuring it all out... :)

    In fact i'm wondering now if I need to ramp up to big doses of potassium in order to tolerate the higher doses of mb12 and methylfolate. Seems plausible, but low and slow for now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
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  17. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Great response!:thumbsup: seems like you're quickly figuring it out. Now you'll just need to get acquainted with what your symptoms are, and you'll be able to get on top of it quicker. One's I was on Freddd's, I realized I'd been suffering from K+ deficiency for years. All my topmost tier of symptoms, like nearlly fainting when I was out, were actually K+. Don't forget you might need to balance it w/ some magnesium. And small doses of B vitamins. :balloons:
     
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  18. Matt_C

    Matt_C Senior Member

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    The p5p pills I have also have 750mg of magnesium in them, and I had half of one of those this morning. I also take a cal/mag supplement at night, about 1500mg mag and 250mg calcium, and 50mg potassium. Do you think I would need any more than that @ahmo? I'm just experimenting with p5p at this stage, not sure if I need it but my doc recommended I take it.
     
  19. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    1500mg of Magnesium per day?
    That sounds like too much. A good dose is 4-500mg. Taking 3 times as much doesn't sound like a good idea, especially if you have a sensitive gut...

    my 2c
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
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  20. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    When I was deficient I took larger doses of magnesium for a couple years. Didn't do me any harm, and rather did some good. However, 1500mg might be more than can do your body any good in one day, so might be a waste of money. IMO stick to under 1000mg/day. Unless it gives you obvious side effects, in which case decrease the dose.

    FWIW, p5p never did me any good until I was well into methylation. The first time I tried it I had a bad reaction to it, in fact. Jittery, anxiety, insomnia, etc. Generally felt crappy. But I gave it another go once I'd been on Freddd's protocol for a few months and then it helped a lot.
     

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