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Feeling crook on paleo diet

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by justy, Nov 14, 2013.

  1. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Clarification - I meant that 'low-carb', not 'very-low-carb', is sometimes used as a shorthand for 'low-grain/low-sugar'.
    aimossy likes this.
  2. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    I'd add carbohydrates in as others said. PHD or Chris Kresser way of eating would be a good place to start. And try these pancakes for breakfast!

    For SIBO I'd also consider Dr. BG's protocol which takes the aggressive approach of building up the good guys instead of trying to starve the bad guys.
    justy and Plum like this.
  3. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Hi @Ripley - I seem to be following you!

    I've just started reading the Paleo Health Diet and have seen that they recommend 20-35% of your calories from carbs. I'm about 10 lbs overweight and housebound and so probably need to be on about 1500 cals/day so I guess I need 500 cals or so from carbs. I make that about three 200g spuds at about 150 cals each. Does that sound right to you?

    I've been suffering from dry eyes for about a year - it could be the menopause or I'm wondering now if I've accidentally ended up too low-carb, having tried the Wahls diet for a while - though I've been on the Starch Solution diet for 7 months, so probably not (I seem to flap about in the breeze of the last diet I read about!).
  4. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Yes. As long as 1500 calories/day isn't too much calorie restriction for you, you are generally correct with that ballpark. If you want to eat other starchy foods, I find it best to use cronometer.com, so it does all the conversions for you (and choosing a 20:30:50 for a custom Macronutrient Ratio for Protein:Carbs:Fat). The goal is to eat the majority of your carbs as "safe starches". But, keep in mind that if you have carby foods that aren't "safe starches" (like a banana, honey, beets, etc.) you still count them towards your total carb consumption.

    The rules are slightly different for weight loss on the Perfect Health Diet. You basically ignore the extra fats and still try to hit your protein and carb targets without much calorie restriction on those carb/protein targets.

    http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/02/perfect-health-diet-weight-loss-version/

    The section on weight loss is at the very back of the book, and is easy to miss. Try to read that section if you can.

    Interestingly, it's extremely difficult for most people to lose the last 10 pounds on any diet. The potato hack is probably the quickest way to lose the weight if you're up for a week of fun with quick results (not recommended for those with serious health issues).
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2014
  5. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I didn't need to count calories at all when I went low-carb, and still don't. The excess fat started melting away soon after I just cut out gluten, and continued to melt away when I went low-carb, until my weight settled near the lower end of normal. It has stayed around there ever since, except when I appear to have made mistakes like accidental increase in carbs or eating too many nuts!

    I tried so many calorie-controlled diets when I was younger and it was difficult due to the hunger. With low-carb it has been so much easier because the hunger has been absent, probably due to it stabilising blood sugar.
  6. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Thanks, Ripley - I'm working through that weight loss post and trying to translate it into actual food. It's quite hard work but I'm getting there, I think. I've got the Personal Paleo Code on order, which someone (you, perhaps!) said was easier going.

    I'd go for the potato hack if I wasn't so sick (I have severe ME and am mostly housebound/bedbound). I had a go at intermittent fasting about a year ago and found myself repeatedly getting lightheaded, even on the fourth or fifth go and my doctor advised me to stop it. Maybe the potato starch will have had enough of a stablising effect on my blood sugar after a few more weeks to try that again.

    All very interesting, this stuff! So many different diets, though, and so many flat-out contradicting each other. I like the idea of following a diet that we've adapted to in evolutionary terms but I'm not sure how advanced the archaeology is in terms of working out what that diet actually was. I feel all I can do is try the various diets for a few months and see if I feel better.

    Pity all the people with different views can't attend a conference and debate the science and evidence on the bits they disagree on and reach a joint position on the bits they actually have consensus on but I expect everyone is too much invested (financially, in many cases, let alone reputationally) in their positions.
  7. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Wish I could say the same! I packed in gluten a while ago and although it considerably reduced my chronic sinusitis, it didn't lose me any weight.

    I've been on a low-carb diet (accidentally: I was trying to reduce calories and in doing so, reduced carbs probably too much) and successfully lost weight over a year. It has started to creep back on, though, and now I'm trying to find the diet that's best for my health as well as one that will lose me some weight. I've tried various diets such as Terry Wahls's and the Blum autoimmune diet but haven't felt any different - though that's possibly because they're too demanding in terms of food preparation for me to be able to do.
    justy likes this.
  8. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Well, the macronutrient ration (carbs: protein :fat) was determined by mimicking the macronutrient ratio of human breast milk (adjusted for the higher carb consumption of infants) and how our cells break down nutrients during fasting. When you look at those two clues, you get the PHD macronutrient ratio. And then it's just a matter of meeting that macronutrient ratio with low toxin, naturally occurring foods. So, it's a pretty simple concept and those ratios are based on some pretty logical deductions and approaches. It's rather elegant, if you really think about it. :)
    dmholmes likes this.
  9. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    I read that far in the book and didn't find that argument convincing (possibly I don't understand something about developmental biology!). Babies are growing so might have different proportional nutrition needs to adults maintaining their bodies and babies' bodies have a different composition to those of adults (higher in fat, including bigger brains relative to their bodies, the brain again being largely fat).

    [/quote] and how our cells break down nutrients during fasting. [/quote]

    Also not sure I find that argument convincing either - one could argue that our cells break down during fasting in terms of what we can least afford to lose being left until last - which would mean that how our cells break down during fasting is in the reverse order of the ideal.

    This is not to say that the PHD isn't spot on - just that I didn't find those arguments (and a lot of others in the book) very convincing.

    The stuff I do find convincing, when it's available, is epidemiological stuff on the health of peoples still eating an ancestral diet, as far as we can tell. I haven't read enough yet to have a sense of how much of that really backs up the PHD but it does seem to be consistent with it.
  10. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Paul Jaminet is on Paleocon today covering the Perfect Health Diet and their Austin retreat.
  11. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Wow, those are massive amounts of fruit (a little) and veg (a lot) - up to 900g - that's a lot of preparing, let alone eating! No way am I going to get that lot down my neck.

    I suppose we can only do our best.
  12. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Well, the hypothesis of the PHD would be easy to dismiss if it weren't for the wide range of diseases and conditions that the diet appears to help cure/alleviate. So, whether you are convinced or not, I think he's probably on to something with his arguments.
  13. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    I agree - there are some promising accounts there. On the other hand, I've seen similar accounts from other, very different diets such as the Starch Solution diet - I find it hard to tease out sometimes whether it's the particular new diet that's doing such good or the weight loss, since many people come to new diets because they're grossly overweight and simply losing that weight and cutting out a lot of processed rubbish should do a lot of good. Joe Cross, who did a 60-day green juice fast and lost a very great deal of weight and cured his auto-immune disease of urticaria at the same time, is a case in point.

    I don't mean to knock the PHD - indeed, I'm in the process of switching to it! I just think that with all these diets, it's quite hard to assess the evidence and with the various paleo diets, there's the extra issue of how to establish what people were eating 10,000 years ago. I think we're at the beginning of this, though, in terms of the scientific scrutiny that the area of evolutionary medicine has been getting - it's a very, very exciting and promising area.

    I'm especially grateful to you for helping us navigate our way through the literature and various blog posts, particularly on resistant starch. This stuff is just fascinating.
  14. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    Those complaining of "feeling crook" on a paleo-vegetarian diet could be overlooking the deleterious, and poorly understood, reality of vegemite toxicity. :nervous:
    justy likes this.
  15. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Does that apply to yeast extract generally? I can't stand Vegemite but I do like ordinary yeast extract. Do you have any links/info abut this?
  16. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    No it was just a joke. I had a couple of Aussie roommates many years ago who used the expression, "feeling crook", which I now understand to be exclusive to those from the antipodes. These weirdos also had a sort of fetish for this salty spread they used to make me consume after a night of drinking. So there's this association of strange animals, funny expressions, and weird culinary tastes when I think of things from 'stralia. I find most of these loveable folks understand their uniqueness in the world and don't mind being kid about it from time to time.
  17. shah78

    shah78

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    With all due respect , there is no Veggie Paleo diet. Early humans were the greatest hunters in the 4 and a half billion years of Earth. They were not killing/hunting animals for sport. THEY ate the suckers, all that we could find. A veggie paleo diet is an OXYMORON.
  18. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    I mostly agree. But @justy doesn't eat meat other than fish. This is a sort of vegetarianism.

    Although I don't follow this diet, I do believe it's probably the best possible diet for a lot of us as it's less acidifying. I find my brain is better when I'm not eating mammals but I lose muscle mass. As a former gym rat in my previous life I find this unacceptable.
  19. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    Ha Ha, vegemite, yuck! i'm a marmite girl through and through, none of that antipodean muck for me
  20. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    I'm not sure where to begin with this, and am a bit wiped this morning. Obviously i'm not sdtupid enough to think that a veggie paleo diet really exists - its been invented by meat eaters after all. I was merely trying a paleo version that may help my health - it didn't - it made me more sick and my stomach was really screwed on it.

    Early hunters were the greatest hunters in the earths history?
    I tale issue with this statement. Greatest hunters? what about carnivorous dinosaurs? Killer whales? lions? raptors? birds of prey?

    Humans are much more like bears, and there is enough evidence to support the claim that most early humans ate very little meat, mainly gathering berries, nuts, tubers, leaves, and eating insects, fish, shellfish and eggs.

    Unlike a lion I am not capable of running after a large (or small) animal, catching it with my bare hands and ripping it apart and eating it raw. Humans only became capable of this when they developed tools and fire to cook with.

    Mnay hunter gatherer societies left on the planet today eat small amounts of meat with a mainly foraged diet of what I listed above. The inuit are of course different, as are the Masai of Kenya, but research has shown them to have different genes to most other populations, which have eveolved over the years, their bosdies can handle such a restrictive diet. Also it has been shown, since the famous work by the doctor on the innuit diet (sorry cant remember names and dates) that the Innuit traditionally live a shorter life span than we are prepared to accept as feasible.

    I believe that there are many different diets that suit many different types of people. A vegetarian diet is not in itself unhealthy - 470 million Indians have lived on it for many many generations. In Nepal and the Himalayas the basic diet is Dhal and Rice or Dhal and unleavened bread - on this diet the Sherpas climbed Mount Everest without Oxygen!

    All the best,
    Justy.
    MeSci likes this.

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