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Feeling crook on paleo diet

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by justy, Nov 14, 2013.

  1. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    @Ripley thanks for that information. My M.E doctor advised me to go with my gut feelings (no pun intended!) on how long to take the antibiotics for and what was right for me to do, and my gut feeling has always been that some starchy tubers are good for you. Native peoples from all around the world prepare and eat starches -mainly tubers. For me I cant really see myself ever leaving out ALL carbs (including heavier carb veggies) as recommended to me.

    I know paleo/stone age diets are heavily promoted in the M.E/cfs world, but my view is that diet is only tinkering and that wht is needed is full and adequate testing to see what the problems really are - proper testing for SIBO, leaky gut, parasites, bacteria, food allergies, colonoscopy etc. As I said my Genova diagnpostics where not remarkable, and yet I have been given the standard, no carb, full on antibiotic regime, with no idea if this will help or futher wreck my gut.

    My commiserations to everyone suffering with gut problems. I have to admit I had many years of M.E without gut ill health, but now it seems to go on and on.

    Justy x

    I have another thread on my gut issues here:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/genova-cdsa-results.21266/#post-324229

    and here:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...es-my-gut-worse-pleae-help.26945/#post-411486
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  2. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I agree that very-low-carb is a bad idea. I think that sometimes people use the term as a shorthand for 'low-grain/low-sugar'. I do have a small amount of gluten-free grain, and also some legumes. I don't think there's any doubt that Palaeolithic humans had carbs such as fruit and tubers.
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  3. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Senior Member

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  4. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    @justy, you would do well to at least read the Perfect Health Diet. Paul Jaminet, the author, went on a journey that is very similar to yours. The PHD is a very balanced Paleo diet, and has a very good track record of solving a wide range of health issues. They even have a section in the book for those who don't eat meat for religious reasons. Chris Kresser (from the link that @Fogbuster just posted) also promotes the Perfect Health Diet to many of his patients and the book outlines how the diet can even be tweaked for those who wish to stay in ketosis.

    Chris Kresser also has a book coming out at the end of the month, Your Personal Paleo Code, which I'm sure will be excellent and will likely be very similar to the Perfect Health Diet, but with more personal customizations — given how similar Kresser's recommendations are to the PHD.

    Good luck to you!
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
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  5. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I don't think we need books to teach us how to naturalize our diets. It's pretty obvious what foods were not available to hunter-gatherers. I see paleo recipes full of cocoa and honey or coconut sugar.......sorry, no. Our ancestors were not refining and combining these foods.

    For me the trick is to be very honest about the foundation of my diet: grass-fed meats, wild caught fish, seaweed, berries, and vegetables. This is not all that I eat. But it's my foundation. It's what I think of as the real food in my diet.

    Transitioning to a diet that fully supports my health has been/is a very long process. Baby steps is working for me, where lists of approved foods and a desire for perfection......failed.
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  6. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    It may be obvious what foods were available, but a book like Kresser's or Jaminet's can be extremely useful for determining the adequate carb levels to support your thyroid, brain, immune system, microbiota and every organ in your own body. And once you determine that level, you'd be shocked at how many potatoes you'd need to eat to hit a moderate level of just 30% of your calories from carbs. It's a lot.

    The only problem with cutting out grains is that refined carbs are so carb rich you don't automatically realize how many natural complex carbs you actually need to consume in order to keep your carbs at a moderate level. This is why many Paleos accidentally end up going very low carb, without even realizing it — and that can be quite dangerous over the long term.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  7. Lynn

    Lynn Senior Member

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    I started the Perfect Health Diet in August. My husband and I both love it. I had been on a low carb diet my entire life. i was neither skinny nor healthy. I eat more now than I have in my whole life. I have lost a much needed 10 pounds since starting and am never hungry. The amount of potatoes and rice that they recommend is a lot. I don't even have to measure because I could never eat it all.

    I am doing the intermittent fasting which means eating within an eight hour window everyday. I am able to keep my eating to between 1 pm and 9 pm without getting hypoglycemic. I would never have thought I could do that before the diet.

    This is the first diet that I have ever been on that is more like a lifestyle. Neither my husband nor I desire to eat any other way. We don't crave anything that is not in the diet.

    I recommend the book as it looks like there is a lot of science behind the recommendations.

    I cannot say anything about the health impact of the diet since I started taking high dose vitamin B-1 before I started the diet. But the combination of the B-1 and The Perfect Health Diet is allowing me to do more than I have in twenty years with this illness. I'm not cured but I have a better quality of life.

    Lynn
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  8. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Pretty easy if you consume plenty of fruit, veg and nuts. You could do your own calculations using links from this page.

    I certainly wouldn't want to get such a high proportion of my carbs from spuds.
  9. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I too lost excess fat after going low-grain/low-sugar, although the weight loss started rapidly when I just cut out gluten initially. Now the fat has been replaced by muscle and I am more flexible than I have been for years as well as being an ideal weight (and I am 60!). Numerous symptoms have improved. But I never followed any specific book or diet; I just adapted my vegan diet to cut out certain foods and reduce others.

    Yes - the lack of hunger is very welcome too. The weight loss was effortless as a result.
  10. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    http://cronometer.com is the easiest calculator I've found.

    And after reading the Perfect Health Diet, as well as Kresser's works, I wouldn't want to get such a high proportion of my carbs from fruits and nuts (high Omega-6 and excessive fructose). Those foods are best enjoyed in moderation. So, to each his/her own. Tubers are the most nutrient dense vegetables and an excellent source of carbs and fermentable fibers — which are crucial to any properly functioning gut. Ignore fermentable fibers at your own peril. It's no wonder that traditional cultures revered their tubers.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  11. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I ensure a balance of foods, and take a supplement for omega-3s. Thus leafy veg, root veg, spuds, nuts, seeds, legumes, some fruit, some gluten-free grain and plenty of coconut oil.
  12. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    For what it's worth, Chris Voigt ate nothing but potatoes for 60 days straight — as many traditional cultures have done before him, over even longer periods — and his health improved dramatically. Watch the video here:

    http://20potatoesaday.com

    There appears to be something special about tubers — and recent evidence suggests that it has something to do with Resistant Starch (a prebiotic / fermentable fiber)
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
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  13. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I get arthritis from potatoes.......from all nightshades........so I promise not to try this diet.
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  14. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    I can certainly respect that. Though, it's likely that there is an underlying cause to your arthritis that is merely exacerbated by nightshades (not necessarily caused by them). For instance, and this might help you...

    http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/05/an-osteoarthritis-recovery-story/

    Removing the potato skins tends to help as well.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  15. anniekim

    anniekim Senior Member

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    I know this may sound a bit cheeky but I wonder whether Dr my hill diagnoses all her patients with fermenting gut. She did me when I did the Genova test and I am not sure why. I just can't seem to get along without any starch, even though I know Dr Myhill is against it. I read a book by Paul jaminet who advocates that most people do best with a bit of starch/natural sugar as our body does need a certain amount of glucose for certain functions in the body. He calls his diet recommendations a low to moderate carb diet and advocate approx 400 starch calories

    Obviously this is just his theory but it's interesting and I like his recommendations as I can manage them so could be bias! I am just too hungry and weak with no starch. He argues that carbs from vegetables give you no significant glucose as your body uses up most of the energy from them by digesting them

    Edit

    Apologies, I should have read all the posts as I see others have mentioned pAul Jaminet too :)
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
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  16. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    @anniekim you wrote my thoughts exactly re the diagnosis. I believe most of her diagnoses are based on her pre- existing theories, rather than individualised. However I do know some of her patients who have improved on her diets and restored gut function. Although strangely one patient of hers I know has also been diagnosed with SIBO, and I thought they had much worse gut problems than me, but they weren't advised to take long courses of very strong antibiotics.

    I am going to get my diet back in order in the new year, but I think I will start back with cutting out all suagrs and gluten again, add in the Betaine HCL and see how that goes for a few months first. Despite greater stamina in recent months and a general improvement in symptoms (apart from gut which is worse) I still find I am extremely sensitive to all changes to diet, as well as many supplements and most medications.

    All the best,
    Justy.
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  17. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    We can make glucose from a wide range of foods, and can also regenerate it from the storage form called glycogen. We don't need sugar in our diet, although we have a taste for it as it is an instant form of energy and thus useful at times of food scarcity. We now have the opposite problem - a superabundance of food - in the modern world, hence overconsumption of these instant/rapid energy sources which we can't use quickly enough, hence the obesity, diabetes and vascular disease epidemics. People with ME are even less able than healthy people to use such energy sources quickly enough.

    This seems a good source of info about glucose and nutrition.
  18. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    True, and yet very low carbers can have glucose deficiencies (often exhibited by decreased hyaluronan and mucin as well as reduced levels of T3 thyroid hormone). It's not easy for your body to produce the 100-150g of glucose necessary to operate your immune system and the peripheral (non-brain) organs in your body day after day, after day, after day. The effects of glucose deficiencies from not eating enough carbs are discussed here:

    http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/10/jimmy-moore’s-seminar-on-“safe-starches”-my-reply/

    and here:

    Dangers of Zero-Carb Diets, I: Can There Be a Carbohydrate Deficiency? >>
    Dangers of Zero-Carb Diets, II: Mucus Deficiency and Gastrointestinal Cancers >>
    Danger of Zero-Carb Diets III: Scurvy >>

    Dangers of Zero-Carb Diets, IV: Kidney Stones >>
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
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  19. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I don't have arthritis. I get arthritic symptoms, overnight, from eating nightshades, including all types of potatoes, with or without the skins.

    Meanwhile.......I think there's agreement here that paleo does not equal low carb.

    @justy "Despite greater stamina in recent months and a general improvement in symptoms (apart from gut which is worse)" Did this have anything to do with the dietary changes......if you can tell?
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  20. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    @madietodd noi i'm afraid it had nothing to do with dietary changes. I only attmepted the diet for two weeks and it made me so sick...

    I seem to be in a subset of people who have a tendency towards recovery - i have had a long remission in the past for nearly 8 years to near normal functioning

    All the best,
    Justy.
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