1. Patients launch a $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
ME/CFS and the Magic of the Canine Factor
There's been plenty of research indicating that having pets is good for your health. I never really noticed any particular benefits to having cats, though that may have had more to do with my cats. They've been fairly indifferent to my presence and we've shared a live-and-let-live...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Feeling crook on paleo diet

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by justy, Nov 14, 2013.

  1. justy

    justy Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,327
    Likes:
    1,941
    U.K
    I have been off the p[aleo diet now for 3 days and feeling much better. Sickness and nausea all gone and left with very bad lower abdominal pain. This article makes sense in explaining what could be going on. I have some BHCL but haven taken it yet. I'm going to stick to my regular diet until I feel completely better, then try cutting out gluten and all sugar again only, then add Betaine HCL slowly. Not willing to try digestive enzymes for a while again though just in case. was awake most of frday night with awful stomach pain.

    Off to the GP now just to have a quick stomach poke and make sure all ok - don't think ill discuss the diet stuff with them tho!


    http://chriskresser.com/paleo-diet-challenges-solutions-ii-its-all-about-the-gut
    Star-Anise, mermaid and aimossy like this.
  2. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

    Messages:
    194
    Likes:
    104
    @justy
    hi there! I've been enjoying everyone's personal stories so far & feedback & was going to add my voice to mix.
    I too had Genova test done, and had a parasite & +++yeast problem identified, along with a general overgrowth in bacteria.
    I did ++yeast cleanses using Biotics Research oregano oil + some other more standard ingredients (my naturopath swore by the BR oregano oil) & it worked to clear up yeast, and then I had to do triple-antibiotic therapy for parasites.
    I'm still repairing the damage to my gut from having these pathogens present and 100% paleo is a critical part of my healing regimen. I did not find that I had any difficulties transitioning to a paleo diet, albeit, I did do it in stages. Here's a bit of an outline that worked for me, and a close friend of mine...

    Stage 1: eliminate all sugar that has been added. Everything with an "ose" (i.e. glucose, sucrose, maltose). Use stevia honey, or coconut sugar as replacement as needed. Included in this stage is all artificial sweeteners such as aspartame and Saccharin. Eat as much fruit as you need at this stage. Including very sweet fruit if needed like dates or banana, but try to avoid in large quantities.
    ensure stable at this stage before going to next

    Stage 2: cut down all refine carbohydrates such as grains, and rices to 1 cup per meal and minimize to zero. Use steamed or fried potatoes, sweet potatoes, and squashes to replace carbs.
    At this stage as you reduce those really refined carbs, it may become important to adopt a hypoglycemia diet. Many of us have weak adrenals and we just don't hold our sugars stable, and lack the fine-tuning with insulin release needed for good blood sugar control. So this may mean eating small but frequent meals, and ensure carbs + fat/protein is always in place.

    Stage 3: if one is not feeling substantially better at this stage, I would look at food intolerances/sensitivities & possibly food-combing issues. If the digestion is extremely compromised then one might have to look at avoiding combing fruit with more concentrated foods, as well as not mixing starches & proteins. This is what I had to do in order to not get that severe energy drop or severe indigestion following meals. As well, I had to do this diet for years to notice stable improvements in my energy. I view the diet as one of the foundational changes that one has to do to order to support overall healing... but I certainly don't have all the answers.
    ah, re:

    probiotics:
    Yes, especially when my gut was full of bacteria, I had trouble with these. I feel health food stores really push them as a one-size-fits-all remedy, whereas, the Genova testing will indicate what particular strains would be most beneficial and if you need @ all. As well, my naturopath has warned about additives in probiotics to make them more shelf stable...

    re; carbs:
    At certain points in my healing journey (when I was more insulin resistant and overweight) I found it absolutely necessary to eat as low carb as I could without triggering my hypoglycemia. For about 4-6 mos, I did periods when I was eating Atkins level low carbs. Once I lost some weight, and gained some muscle through a graduated exercise program, my energy improved about 25%. From that time (about one year ago) until now it has become increasingly more important for me to eat more carbs, even in form of *potatoes* (he he) in order to avoid hypoglycemia attacks as I have been fortunate enough to be in a position where I can increase my exercise and activities during the day, and bottom-line - my body needs the energy. I found that chronic hyoglycemia has been a huge part of my fatigue and illness & it had started prior to me getting sick & when I got the parasite. I was training as a competitive runner at the time, and I remember waking up in the middle of the night starving, and then just feeling terrible most of the time. I feel that this really can become an issue when one progresses with low carb, or paleo too quickly, and I blame weak adrenals. That's why one has to go really slowly from Stage 2 to 3 (as outlined above).

    digestive enzymes: for me there was/is a correct time/place for these. In my experience these do increase digestion causing your body to do more work, and I'm not sure of exact mechanism (I think through lysine) can promote liver detox. The net result can be more fatigue. I think one has to be a bit careful with these, and more is not always better. I would reserve them for the most concentrated meals, and air on the side of a more simple enzyme. I like the one from AOR.

    re: bone broth:
    I haven't found a lot of success to be honest in bone broths. But maybe I'm doing it wrong?! I am also very glutamate sensitive, and I think that broth is high naturally in glutamate. Anyhow, this is where I am at - looking at what simple things I can do to promote that further healing. The IV Vitamin C treatments that I am doing seem to help reduce the overall inflammation and reactivity of the gut, and I have noticed a similar improvement with Quercetin. So some progress.... :)

    small meals are always better for me & timing... seems to be an issue too. At the beginning stages of my recovery, I could tolerate larger meals later in day (i.e. supper), and not for breakfast & *definitely not lunch*.

    Hope that helps,
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
    Keep Going Forward, Beyond and justy like this.
  3. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

    Messages:
    194
    Likes:
    104
    @justy oh ya,.... forgot to mention, a lot of people when they are transitioning off of grains they over-rely on nuts & nut flours. this can work for some, and certainly that was me with several tbsp of nut butter/day, and making muffins & such with almond butter. however, I found that nuts can greatly contribute to inflammation that might be underlying the problem to begin with......
    S
    justy and Beyond like this.
  4. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes:
    2,965
    Cornwall, UK
    It was chestnuts that gave me a setback after months of improving on a sort of palaeo-vegan diet. I love them too, but will not be eating more than a very occasional one or two now, as the price I pay healthwise is too high.

    My appetite was excessive, frequent and urgent before I went low-carb, and I was overweight. My weight is now normal and so is my appetite.

    I do sometimes find that I can't face certain foods, and have to find something different to eat.

    I don't agree that we need to up our carbs. Athletes may benefit, as they can burn the energy properly. We can't, so the carbs will just cause glucose swings, insulin resistance and weight gain, and increase the risks of diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Oh - and mess up our gut flora.
    justy, mermaid and Star-Anise like this.
  5. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes:
    1,550
    East Coast, USA
    Well, yes. My point was that if someone goes super low carb and gets alarmed by a total loss of appetite, they could try eating more carbs. Some people can't afford to lose weight.
  6. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes:
    2,965
    Cornwall, UK
    I take your point, but the carbs should preferably not be predominantly sugar- or grain-based. I understand that fruit is OK in moderation, as the sugar is bound/offset by other components of the food so doesn't cause such dramatic swings in blood glucose.
    madietodd likes this.
  7. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes:
    2,965
    Cornwall, UK
    Do you have any links to info about needing acid to digest raw veg? My understanding is that veg does not need much acid to digest, but meat and protein do.

    Oil is good though as long as it is monounsaturated or rich in omega-3, and not used for cooking as it denatures when heated, resulting in harmful products. Saturated fat is better for cooking.

    Fat is essential, and has been wrongly demonised in conventional dietary advice.
  8. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes:
    2,965
    Cornwall, UK
    Your diet sounds good to me. I cut out chilli for a long time, and pickles, but have reintroduced them (just small amounts) and seem fine. I think Dr M's recommendations are too strict. I have some pulses and seem fine with them.

    I wonder whether your nausea could have been due to PEM? I still get that sometimes.
  9. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes:
    2,965
    Cornwall, UK
    On what do you base you belief about us needing carbs? I agree that we need fruit and veg, which contain grains, but for most of human history we have not had grains (apart for maybe small amounts of uncultivated stuff) or refined sugar (or dairy products). That's the basis for the palaeo diet - that most people's guts are not adapted to those foods.

    We make carbohydrate, i.e. glucose, from all types of food.
    Soundthealarm21 likes this.
  10. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes:
    2,965
    Cornwall, UK
    Be careful about substituting sodium with potassium. My own potassium levels have tested high (although high potassium can be artefactual due to red blood cells rupturing - in the UK they use the less-accurate plasma/serum levels instead of RBC levels) and my sodium has been dangerously low - almost life-threateningly so - twice.

    I take 8-10g of L-glutamine a day and seem good with it. Not only can it help heal the gut, but it can also help build muscle.
  11. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,374
    Likes:
    1,531
    NZ
    @MeSci I based that on what a couple doctors and a dietician has said to me...feel like im bein told off I didn't go research it hard core or anything to refute what they said and now cant remember the specifics:(
  12. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes:
    2,965
    Cornwall, UK
    You're not being told off, @aimossy! I just wanted to know, and to make some points.
  13. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes:
    2,965
    Cornwall, UK
    I wrote a reply but messed up the quoting and then lost the lot!

    So I'll make it brief this time.

    I use xylitol as a sweetener now.

    I used to be hungry at night on high-carb but very rarely get it now that I am low-carb.
    aimossy likes this.
  14. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,374
    Likes:
    1,531
    NZ
    @MeSci that's ok over reaction by me....can you explain I thought that producing ketones is not a good thing like a sign of being undernourished/starving. like anorexia can cause increased ketones.im not a scientist but worked in health but sometimes that can mean I have information but not all information/understanding if you get my meaning.you know how a bit of knowledge can get you into trouble lol:)
  15. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes:
    2,965
    Cornwall, UK
    Don't worry - I was the same before I studied science.

    I don't have all the info in my head about ketones, but low-carb diets are also known as ketogenic diets, so they are known to produce higher amounts of ketones. This is not necessarily a cause for concern.

    I did a quick search and there are some sites that are very alarmist about ketones.

    There is too much to say about ketones to know where to start. I believe that they may be a bad sign if you are diabetic, but I'm not really knowledgeable about this.

    Ketoacidosis is a very dangerous condition, but ketosis is not necessarily a cause for alarm.

    The Wikipedia entry for low-carb diets looks good from a quick look.
    aimossy likes this.
  16. justy

    justy Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,327
    Likes:
    1,941
    U.K
    Just a quick update to say that I feel fine now I am back to my normal vegetarian standard diet.

    So after a good few months of trying new things this year - namely Armour thyroid, extra supplements and paleo diets, all of which caused a serious decrease in my functioning and wellbeing - I am now finally back to my normal, which is not great but manageable for now.

    I am now not taking ANY supplements or doing any special diets or taking any meds apart from asthma inhaler.

    Square one. Again.
  17. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes:
    2,965
    Cornwall, UK
    Arggh - I meant to say that fruit and veg contain carbs, not grains!
    justy and aimossy like this.
  18. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,374
    Likes:
    1,531
    NZ
    oh man there is so much I have to learn! damn gut issues!
    justy and rosie26 like this.
  19. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

    Messages:
    377
    Likes:
    400
    The idea that our paleolithic ancestors ate a very low carbohydrate diet is nothing more than a hypothesis that Loren Cordain (the original author of the "Paleo Diet") came up with from his research years ago. His book was a huge step forward to starting the "Paleo" movement. But, since his popular book was published, a lot of new research has emerged and many other more recent "Paleo" authors have published their own versions of the "Paleo" diet and that research has evolved to a sort of Paleo 2.0 which includes starchy tubers: Chris Kresser, Paul Jaminet, Kurt Harris, Stephan Guyenet, Richard Nikoley and Mark Sisson now all recommend the inclusion of some "safe starches" (and even some properly prepared legumes) into their diets.

    Paul Jaminet — author of The Perfect Health Diet followed the low carb Paleo diet — along with his wife, and saw a decline in their health over time. He and his wife — both trained scientists — discovered that there is a lot of evidence that our Paleolithic ancestors ate a moderate carb diet (~30% carbs). Starchy tubers likely played a significant role in providing the energy necessary to fuel our larger Primate brains. Jaminet also discovered that there is a lot of research that shows that low carb diets can be rather harmful to one's health over the long term. Blood sugar issues, thyroid issues, gut issues, fungal infections are all promoted by very low carb diets. See Jaminet's blog series on zero carb dangers:

    http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/zero-carb-dangers/

    While the Perfect Health Diet is a "Paleo" diet, it's called the "Perfect Health Diet" because Jaminet claims that it cures all of the problems caused by a poor diet — including problems from low carb Paleo diets. Be sure to weigh your complex carbs as it requires eating a lot of potatoes or rice to hit the recommended targets. The results have been impressive to say the least.

    Jeff Leach, of the American Gut Project, has also written about how low carb diets don't provide enough fermentable fibers for your microbiota, and will likely lead to gut issues:

    http://humanfoodproject.com/sorry-low-carbers-your-microbiome-is-just-not-that-into-you/

    Furthermore, comb any "low carb Paleo" board and you'll find a lot of Paleo dieters have adrenal fatigue and other unexplained health issues — despite the fact that their health improved dramatically after transitioning from a Standard American Diet. It's become a trend. In fact, the latest issue of "Paleo" magazine has a whole feature on Adrenal Fatigue (it's not their first time featuring it either).

    Don't get me wrong, I believe the Paleo diet is a huge improvement over a traditional Standard American Diet. I eat a lot of "Paleo"-inspired meals every day. And low carb diets can be very therapeutic over the short term — or for those who require ketosis. But, most people will have a decline in some aspects of their health, over the long term, if they continue on a very low carb diet. "Safe starches" are key to supporting your microbiota and your gut barrier.

    Interestingly, many Paleos are now experimenting with Resistant Starch, which appears to nullify the blood sugar spikes that most Paleos are so worried about when eating starches, and it provides your microbiota with the food it needs to survive and flourish. Your gut needs fermentable fibers and Resistant Starch. And if you look for it, you will find that every traditional native culture, around the world, ate some form of starchy tuber, bulb or safe starch — all of which are sources of Resistant Starch. In fact, I'm not aware of any traditional culture that avoided complex carbs. Resistant Starch is taking over the Paleo world by storm these days. Best to investigate it now and try to turn your health around.

    I've posted a thread about the benefits of Resistant Starch and how to obtain it, here:

    The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For? >>

    Good luck!
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2013
    justy likes this.
  20. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,374
    Likes:
    1,531
    NZ
    well its another thing to look into and to take into account so thanks for information @Ripley :)

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page