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Feel awful after taking d-lactate free probiotics.

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by lizw118, Jul 1, 2012.

  1. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi all,
    I am on a course (1-2 month) of doxycycline for lyme disease and I need to take high doses of probiotics. I have d-lactate free probiotics by custom probiotics which I think is a good product. It has a high concentration in it. Whenever I take it I feel horrible though-I get all puffy and sluggish. This is why I couldn't handle taking this product before, and happen to still have a lot in my freezer. I have sibo so I have to stay away from d-lactate if possible. I am trying to avoid probiotics with acidophilus. In the past I seem to have tolerated bifidus okay and Culturelle, whatever that is. Should I take high doses of those instead? I am taking charcoal for the die-off, which helps only to a certain extent. Should I continue this? Or is the fact that I feel bad a sign I should switch to something else? BTW my lower gut phenotype is high prevotella and e. coli, low bacterioids.
    Thanks
    Liz
  2. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    My suggestion, if that is something you aren't doing yet, is to take Saccharomyces boulardii. The pharmaceutical grade brand is Florastor.
  3. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi Nanonug,
    I am taking S. boulardii. I am taking two pills per day of 5 billion cfu (similar to florastor, I think). Should I take more or less of it? Thanks
    Liz
  4. Aileen

    Aileen Senior Member

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    Is there any FOS or other potentially problematic additives in anything you are taking?
  5. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    I would not know. I always take Florastor, two capsules a day.
  6. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi Aileen,
    No, no FOS in the D-lactate free stuff. I don't know why I react so badly to it.
    Liz
  7. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    Can Saccharomyces cerevisiae exist in the human gut and be beneficial? If so, maybe I'll make some up.
  8. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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  9. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    cheney had a protocal for this. You should find it using google I think. I do believe it's much more than what you're taking. I remember one individual with CFS whose IBS cleared up completely with s boulardii.
  10. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    Leaky gut (intestinal hyperpermeability) is a possibility indeed. How many CFU is in that custom probiotic of yours?
  11. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi Global Pilot and Nanonug
    Yes, I do think I probably have leaky gut. Does that mean I should not take probiotics? I don't know what to do though, because I will be on ABX for a while. Should I be taking smaller doses spaced out? The Custom Probiotics D-Lactate Free adult dose is 208 billion CFUs which is a very large dose, so maybe it is simply too much?
    Thanks
    Liz
  12. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    With leaky gut, you risk substances leaky through into the bloodstream. I believe that is why I can oxalate kidney stones. You could try probiotic enemas and try to massage the water all the way through the large intestine. You could be s boulardii nanonug suggested in it or bifidus etc. There's no evidence this works but it may be worth a shot to avoid any overgrowths of yeast or the bad bacteria.

    Colostrum might be anther thing to try (boosts IgA).
  13. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Or just avoid taking probiotics altogether, until you can get a handle on the SIBO (and possibly leaky gut).
  14. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    If that's the case, you should probably get tested for the condition. Leaky gut could very well be the cause behind many of the nasty ME/CFS symptoms.

    Without knowing for sure whether you have leaky gut or not, and what is causing it, it is difficult to tell. For example, if SIBO is behind leaky gut, it's probably a bad idea to take probiotics prior to SIBO eradication.

    I would start by testing for SIBO (lactulose breath test looking for both hydrogen and methane). Then, based on the results, take it from there.

    I currently take VSL #3 packets thrice a day. This means I am getting at least 1350 billion CFU/day. I am doing it due to an overgrowth of Morganella morganii in my gut. A rosacea-like "butterfly" in my face disappeared after just a couple of days on this VSL #3 dosage. So, in my case, very high CFU is what I need. In your case, it all comes down to knowing what is wrong in the first place, I am afraid...
  15. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    If you read deep in some medical literature you will find that D-Lactate and L-Lactate convert to each other. It's a big joke...both are poison. Obviously not everyone is equally susceptible to lactate poisoning but a lot of CFS patients have weak liver enzymes either by genetics or toxin exposure so in this case you may just want to drop the probiotics altogether.
  16. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Catching up here. Thanks, everyone. I have been taking a couple of days off of the probiotics and have felt a little better. I am sticking with the S. Boulardi and am going to try to test different strengths and types of probiotics to see if I can tolerate anything. I probably don't have time to get a new doc for the sibo in time to deal with it while dealing with the lyme and taking doxy so I will have to do trial and error for a while. The colostrum is probably a good idea, too. I tried that once before and didn't get any noticeable results, but I still have the bottle, so I might as well try again. Also perhaps the bifidus will be better because it does not make any lactate, i believe. I did not know about the D and L Lactate conversions. Are there any other probiotics aside from bifidus that do not create lactates of any kind?
    Thanks
    Liz
  17. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    Hi Liz,

    please always remember, that we don't know really much auf CFS, the gut or chronic gut diseases in general. The lactate theory is speculation, moreover I find it a not very good idea to take tons of probiotics, while you have SIBO. The only probiotic that seems to help with SIBO is Align. In any other case I don't understand the course of thought, when you already have too much bacteria in the upper gastrointestinal tract, why do you ingest even more? If you suffer from Leaky Gut, SIBO will do its part to increase the bacterial load and LPS translocation into the blood stream, so taking probiotics might not be a good idea. In fact it's pure gambling that can make the situation a lot worse.

    Greets

    Wave

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