1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
A disease with two faces? Re-naming ME/CFS
Persuasion Smith covers the bases on the misleading and disreputable name for our disease we've all been saddled with ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Fecal Transplants: Seriously, What Do We Think?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by slayadragon, Mar 25, 2012.

  1. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,098
    Likes:
    393
    twitpic.com/photos/SlayaDragon
    Previously on this board, there has been some discussion of fecal transplants.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...oms-of-Parkinson-s-(and-CFS)&highlight=faecal

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...herapy)-DIY-home-version-very-straightforward


    Here, Dr. Sarah Myhill talks about the do-it-yourself procedure:

    http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Faecal_bacteriotherapy


    Here are a bunch of articles suggesting that this is a perfectly legitimate form of treatment at least for treatment of c. difficile, but possibly for a wide variety of conditions:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...ome-fecal-transplants-to-cure-disease/251793/

    http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...1/the_enema_of_your_enemy_is_your_friend.html

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/p...=fecal-transplants-the-straight-poop-12-01-31

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=swapping-germs

    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/fecal-transplants-work/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDcia_uqf3k


    So backing up a bit: I don't think that the gut dysbiosis is the core "cause" of CFS. I think that this is a disease that is at its core one of toxicity, and specifically a biotoxin illness.

    However, biotoxins have all kinds of negative effects on the body. For instance, the reason that some species of mold makes poison is to kill off competitive microorganisms in the environment, so that it can grow more widely. If mold poison can kill off environmental bacteria, then it makes sense to me that it would do the same thing in the gut -- wiping out a variety of normal bacteria and leaving a few odd (and possibly pathogenic) strains to flourish.

    I have made tremendous progress with my health over the past four years. However, in general -- and in particular during the last year -- my gut has taken a real beating. I did a whole lot of detox of various toxins through my gut, and I also identified a really problematic parasite (a fish tapeworm) in my small intestine that released a lot of toxins when it died.

    So my gut is a mess at the moment. I've been using a variety of treatments (including homemade kefir, homemade probiotic yogurt, herbs and diet) to ease it back into shape, but it still seems to have a ways to go.

    Maybe it will heal up on its own. But considering how effective fecal transplants seem to be in restoring gut ecology almost immediately, I'm sort of interested.

    I actually have a candidate for this: a colonics therapist who has an interest in this with regard to her work. She is in her 30's, has lived her whole life in Palm Springs (a place where I run into tons of people who have recovered from CFS "spontaneously" -- it feels good to me too, toxin-wise), has no health problems, has a 10-year-old son with no health or behavior problems, seems wholly emotionally stable, has a pretty healthy diet and looks radiant. She says if we go ahead with it, she would start a blog about it.

    So I'm kind of thinking about doing this.

    In truth, probably I can get my gut in shape regardless. I'm just kind of curious to see how well this would work.

    Is anyone familiar with any CFS patients who have already done this?

    Does anybody have any thoughts?

    Best, Lisa
     
    MishMash likes this.
  2. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,848
    Likes:
    929
    US
    If I were you, I'd do it. Well, I'd probably want her screened like Dr. Myhill's link says.
     
  3. determined

    determined Senior Member

    Messages:
    295
    Likes:
    58
    USA: Deep South
    I'd try it if I had a donor I really knew. I've read about this and heard a scientist on Science Friday who said that this works, but the NIH can't fund anything until the FDA classifies it, and apparently they don't know how to proceed. So not much is happening.
     
  4. pamb

    pamb Senior Member

    Messages:
    168
    Likes:
    20
    Edmonton, AB, Canada
    Thanks! You have me thinking about doing this for John as his gut problems are sure there. Myhill's link is great - naming labs and all. I just don't know where we'd find a donor, as I'm not in great shape in that department. hmmmm. we have a good and healthy friend a couple hundred miles away. hmmmm
     
  5. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

    Messages:
    502
    Likes:
    18
  6. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

    Messages:
    226
    Likes:
    55
    Thank you Sara for the reference. This is interesting.
     
  7. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

    Messages:
    296
    Likes:
    13
    I thought this made a lot of sense awhile ago and did some research. Works great for c.diff. I contacted some docs who were in favour of the procedure for c.diff. - of course not many responded - 2 or 3 did write back saying it would be highly experimental and they doubted there would be benefit. I recall having a conversation about this with Redo, who seemed to know a lot about it and either tried it or knew someone who did. Don't think it was successful though.
     
  8. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

    Messages:
    594
    Likes:
    211
    Ontario
    I've done it and had no observable effects. However, i also have a fermenting upper gut and possibly bad microbes in the lower too. I'm going to work on those issues now and then do more implant enemas.

     
  9. Helene

    Helene

    Messages:
    78
    Likes:
    22
    I just read an article, "Fecal Microbiota Transplantation and emerging applications," in Nature.com. I had to pay for the article. It is written by the famous physician, Dr. T. Borody, dated Feb. 2012.

    He says in the article he has done this on CFS patients, with some success. He gives a reference for this, however, when I then traced his reference and found it, it referred to a study he did in 1995.

    This is now over 12 years ago. Nevertheless, he had success in 40% of patients, who expressed improvement by 50%.

    I do not know if since that time he has had CFS patients.

    He did the implant via colonoscopy procedure once and then via enema.

    However, the article is fabulously interesting for it argues that many conditions can be improved with fecal transplantation. He is even suggesting that a bank be kept, etc.

    I am also very interested in trying this, however, the caution he gives is that the donor must be well screened for viruses, etc.

    Kind regards, Helene
     
  10. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

    Messages:
    764
    Likes:
    494
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    MishMash likes this.
  11. alexa

    alexa

    Messages:
    57
    Likes:
    24
    i talked about fecal transplants with KDM since my mom ( a doctor) read a lot of intresting reseach about it, he said that it would help but only for 10 weeks about, then the faulty bacteria would grow back...
     
  12. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,397
    Likes:
    264
    dr borody published an abstract in oct 2012 that said he got a 58-70% success rate with this procedure and ME/CFS patients

    http://www.eventscribe.com/2012/acg/ajaxcalls/ajaxcalls/AddRemovePosterLikes.asp?PosterID=6110&PosterNumber=P362&PosterTitle=Bacteriotherapy in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome %28CFS%29: A Retrospective Review

    Program Number: P362 Day / Time: Sunday, Oct 21, 3:30 PM – 7:00 PM

    Bacteriotherapy in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS): A Retrospective Review



    Conclusion: Bacteriotherapy achieves initial success rate of 70% in CFS and 58% sustained response. This result is favourable when compared with current therapies where fewer than 10% recover fully and a further 10%-20% worsen during follow-up1. Given that manipulation of the colonic microbiota improved CFS symptoms, bacteriotherapy for CFS warrants further investigation. Furthermore, the pathophysiology of CFS could be in part explained by enteric derived toxin-releasing bacteria capable of producing systemic effects.
     
  13. beaverfury

    beaverfury beaverfury

    Messages:
    433
    Likes:
    433
    West Australia
    Maybe keep some in the fridge and transplant every ten weeks!

    I found this while googling ,
    https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/managing-human-waste-in-the-wild/bjn1lvtHsGc
    Update : As some of you may know I have been running labs on the
    survival of bacteria in feces since last October in a specially
    designed
    cold chamber that simulates the temperature cycles on the surface of
    the
    lower [Kahiltna] glacier [7,200 feet at 63 degrees latitude in
    Alaska]. After 125 days of 24 hr. freeze thaw cycles and exposure to
    UV light all of the bacteria is still very alive and well!

    We are getting really close to have a full report of all the work we
    have done to date, including a full run-down of my simulated
    laboratory experiment. We are hoping to also get it published in a
    Wilderness Management Journal, so the info may be more useful for you
    all in its final form. But by all means you should share the take
    home message: fecal bacteria is quite resilient and as far as we can
    tell, fecal bacteria is preserved in arctic/freezing environment for
    long periods of time.
    From: Katie Goodwin <katie.g...@gmail.com>
    Alaska Pacific University Waste Project
    Date: Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 2:01 PM
     
  14. beaverfury

    beaverfury beaverfury

    Messages:
    433
    Likes:
    433
    West Australia
    I look forward to the day when we can go to the fridge and slam down a cold one to keep our gut bi-ome in line :)
    (...with something a bit more effective than yakult).

    RE; freezing fecal bacteria. Firmicutes to bacteroidetes ratio
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22325006
    In seven of nine cases, the Firmicutes to Bacteroidetes 16S rRNA gene ratio was significantly higher in fecal samples that had been frozen compared to identical samples that had not. This effect was further supported by qPCR analysis of bacterial groups within these two phyla. The results demonstrate that storage conditions of fecal samples may adversely affect the determined Firmicutes to Bacteroidetes ratio, which is a frequently used biomarker in gut microbiology.

    Gut biota, Wiki
    The microbes occupying the human gut are also in direct relation to obesity. A shift in the ratio between bacterial divisions Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes can be observed in lean and obese individuals—in the latter, a shift towards Firmicutes can be observed. The ratio between Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes dynamically reflects the overall weight condition of an individual, shifting towards Bacteroidetes if an obese individual loses weight.

    All in all, it may not be as simple as swallowing a 'fecal fizz'.
    But i've read there are efforts underway by researchers trying to replicate some of the 500 or so human gut bacteria beyond the piddly two dozen weve got in probiotics at the moment.

    As with everything else in the me/cfs world..... HURRY UP!!!!!!!!
     
  15. beaverfury

    beaverfury beaverfury

    Messages:
    433
    Likes:
    433
    West Australia
  16. garcia

    garcia Aristocrat Extraordinaire

    Messages:
    934
    Likes:
    103
    London, UK
    Above link should be:
    http://www.eventscribe.com/2012/acg/ajaxcalls/postersinfo.asp?title=6110

    Article can be read/downloaded for free here:
    http://www.2ndchance.info/inflambowel-Borody2012.pdf
     
  17. MishMash

    MishMash *****

    Messages:
    445
    Likes:
    479
    Georgia
    Very compelling!! Probably works.

    But very gross.
     
  18. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes:
    857
    how long did the improvement last? i heard the CFS symptoms come back after a while.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page