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Fecal Transplant study: 58-70% response rate

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Rrrr, Nov 14, 2012.

  1. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    This study doesn't say anything about other therapies these patients may have experimented
    with on their own. My ex chiro could claim that he cured my ataxia if he never reported that I'd eliminated
    gluten from my diet.

    Just from what I can see, it doesn't discuss the criteria for determining the patients had cfs either. Ibs isn't cfs.

    A lot of people feel better just after doing the colonoscopy prep but it doesn't last once they start eating.

    I suspect slow transit time and missing digestive enzymes play a role for some of us too. My elastace is low
    so my fat digestion is off. I'm waiting to see if taking creon helps.

    Tc .. X (no poo for me thank you)
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Growing your own fecal transplant: Bacteroides bacteria

    One idea I had was to set up your own bacterial culture, growing the most important bacteria that you get in fecal transplants, namely: Bacteroides bacteria (with Bacteroides fragilis the being most predominant Bacteroides species in the intestine).

    Bacteroides are the real "muscle" bacteria in fecal transplants: Bacteroides are strong bacteria that "muscle out" the other undesirable and pathogenic bacteria from the gut.

    Regular probiotic bacteria, like Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium, are pretty feeble fighters of bad bacteria, compared to Bacteroides.

    Why don't probiotic manufactures include Bacteroides in their probiotic formulations, then?

    The answer is that Bacteroides is a little too good at colonizing, and it can very occasionally cause opportunitstic infections in the human body, such as appendicitis, or infection of the peritoneum (the lining of the abdominal cavity).

    However, Bacteroides bacteria are part of the normal healthy gut flora, and any fecal sample will contain Bacteroides.


    So my idea is to use the right growing medium for Bacteroides bacteria, and then with a very small sample of a healthy person's fecal material, use this to start off a Bacteroides culture. Once the culture got going, you could transfer some of your growing Bacteroides bacteria to a new culturing vessel, so that there would be no trace left of the original fecal material (and moreover, hopefully no traces of undesirable microbes from the fecal sample either).

    The trick would be to get the right growing medium for Bacteroides fragilis. This bacterium apparently requires heme (found in red blood cells) to grow, so you may need to get some animal blood from the butcher (or just some black pudding, which is high in heme).

    You could then take this Bacteroides bacteria regularly as a probiotic, and it should help eliminate the bad bacteria from your gut. Of course, there might be a small risk of an opportunistic infection.
    Emootje likes this.
  3. MishMash

    MishMash *****

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    Still the grossest topic on the forum.

    But also the most compelling.
    beaverfury and merylg like this.
  4. est_sunshine

    est_sunshine

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    This is so wrong on so many levels, but I believe may hold the answer for some. I am just starting the GAPS diet and have read all of the reasoning behind that and this directly relates. So far so good on GAPS, but I think it initially has more to do with blood sugar regulation than any changes in the gut yet.

    Anyway, I just called the only place I could find that does this in Aus http://www.cdd.com.au. Turns out you have to go to Sydney for the initial meeting (bulk billed), then they decide if you are suitable and take it from there. Treatment can be from 1 day-5 weeks and is done on site. Medicare covers the cost of the colonoscopy but not the poo therapy bit! So there's a bit of out of pocket expense. Anyone know of any places doing this anywhere else in Aus? I asked them they said no (obviously they would!)
    merylg likes this.
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I actually wonder whether the human species could enjoy much improved heath by purposely populating the guts of new born babies with an appropriate cross-section of health bacteria, grown in the lab.

    What humans do at present is just allow any random bacteria to populate the initially sterile guts of babies. This is great if you are a baby and happen, just by chance, to get your gut colonized with healthy, good bacteria that will fight of bad bacteria in the future. But not so great if, soon after birth, the first bacteria you acquire in your guts are less healthy ones, or even pathogenic ones, that colonize your intestines.

    There needs to be more research into the bacteria that initially colonize a baby's gut, and the appearance of any subsequent health conditions later on in the baby or infant. Autism is linked to higher levels of Clostridia bacteria in the gut; 1 and obesity is linked to higher levels of certain Firmicutes bacteria in the gut, and lower levels of Bacteroidetes bacteria.2 Could these autism and obesity be caused or worsened by gut bacteria you acquired early in life?

    The idea of priming your gut with the right bacteria might in fact be a behavior that naturally occurs in the animal kingdom: dogs are well known to sniff out other dog feces on the ground, and when they find one, may eat it. Dog owners assume that this is fundamentally wrong, and train their dogs not to do it. However, perhaps these dogs are following a natural instinct that makes them seek out good fecal samples for their guts, that will then see these dogs in good health for years to come. I am just speculating here; but there must be some explanation for this extremely common innate behavior of dogs.
    MishMash likes this.
  6. est_sunshine

    est_sunshine

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    Yes, I found a link to an abc interview on the cdd website where the Professor reveals they are in US FDA trials for a probiotic tablet frozen which contains most of the bacteria needed not just 1or 2 strains but it is still years away from sale. Personally, my gut was colonized by camphylobacter at 3 months of age. Acute CampHylobacter can cause Guillain Barre.... I now have chronic autonomic neuropathy .... Connection?
  7. MishMash

    MishMash *****

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    Hip,
    Your observations have all been true since proto-hominids wandered the savannahs of Africa. We evolved with these creatures living in our guts. Since their removal new diseases and conditions have come about.

    But every time the subject of the "hygiene hypothesis" comes up, people roll their eyes, so I just assumed it was a topic that was real; but for some reason people didn't want to discuss. Kind of like global climate change. I'm kind of perplexed why people with CFS aren't more interested, seeing as how it probably plays a big role in our disease.
  8. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    Sorry to poo poo this but I think It's stoolpid.
    Izola likes this.
  9. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Which makes a hospital a poor place for a newborn baby.
  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    The theory of the "hygiene hypothesis" states that the loss of contact with the normal range of microbes that you would find in a rural environment / farm is responsible for the apparent rise in allergies, autoimmune conditions, asthma, etc.

    The hygiene hypothesis of allergies and autoimmunity posits that our much more sterile modern urban environments are cutting us off from beneficial bacteria that stabilize our immune systems and prevent allergies and autoimmunity.

    I don't think the hygiene hypothesis is likely to be true, though there may be some truth to it. I can appreciate how the loss of beneficial gut bacteria and gut worms can ramp up allergies and autoimmunity (especially, worms which usually secrete anti-inflammatory factors in the gut — the basis of helminth therapy); but it is not clear that the rural lifestyle would automatically always provide you with beneficial gut organisms: after all, there may be just as many bad bacteria in the rural environment as good. How can you be sure that you only pick up the good microbes? You can't really.

    I would suggest the reverse hypothesis: that the rise of allergies and autoimmunity in modern urban environments may in fact be more due to urban microbial overload: that is to say, due to the very strong possibly that, in a modern urban environment, we are far more exposed to microbes, not less.

    This is because a large proportion of the microbes we catch are microbes that are transmitted human-to-human, and so the vastly increased number of human beings we have daily contact with in urban environments provides much more opportunity for us to acquire pathogenic viruses, bacteria, etc from other people. Globalization makes this even worse, allowing microbes to easily colonize every corner of the planet.

    For example, the respiratory virus I caught that led to my ME/CFS was picked up by kissing on a date with someone that recently arrived in my city. I developed a bad sore throat by the following morning, and then ME/CFS and other disorders were rapidly precipitated by this virus (and not only in me, but also in several others that unfortunately later caught the virus from me).

    In summary: I suggest rural environments may have been healthier in terms of allergies and autoimmune conditions not so much because of the greater daily contact with a range of microbes that rural environments provide, but because rural environments are more remote, and so isolate and protect you from the large range of pathogenic viruses, bacteria, etc that are carried by the mass of humanity.

    Incidentally, I just came across this new study that, for the first time, throws light on the mechanism by which microbial infections can precipitate autoimmunity. I think this study may have significant implications for ME/CFS.
    est_sunshine likes this.
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Very interesting. If you still have that link to the trials for that probiotic tablet, I'd like to read about it.
  12. est_sunshine

    est_sunshine

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    drewmaster and merylg like this.
  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Thanks, est_sunshine. A very informative interview.

    Prof. Thomas Borody says at the end of that radio interview (at timecode 9:10) that this new "full complement" probiotic should be available on the shelves in 2 to 3 years, because it is a natural product, so it may not have to go through the same long process that bringing a drug to market requires.

    Prof. Borody also says (at timecode 8:46) that in future, he thinks all probiotics will contain the full complement of human intestinal microflora — the equivalent of the full spectrum of beneficial bacteria given in a fecal transplant — rather than just the limited range of microbes found in current probiotics.

    These new full complement probiotics will come freeze-dried. Apparently the US group that Borody is working with have already created a freeze-dried full complement probiotic. (It would be good to track down the US group, to see how they are progressing with this. I'd be interested in signing up for a clinical trial of the freeze-dried probiotic.)

    Prof. Borody says (at timecode 6:50) that normal human gut flora contains over 3.3 million different genetic strains of bacteria, whereas a regular probiotic contains less than 10 strains!

    Prof. Borody says (at timecode 1:04) that the diseases which fecal transplant / full complement freeze-dried probiotics could treat are: IBS, metabolic syndrome, obesity, arthritis, immune disorders, as well as of course acute Clostridium difficile infection. (Since a large percent of people with ME/CFS have IBS, myself included, fecal transplant could prove valuable.)

    Prof. Borody says (at timecode 2:14) that the Chinese in the 4th century were already using fecal transplant for what sounds like IBS and diarrhea.

    He says (at timecode 3:00) that, regarding the people who provide the fecal material, his team can identify people who he calls "super donors", whose fecal samples have a track record of curing many patients. (So it seems like not all fecal material is equal.)

    He says (at timecode 3:15) that in the US, due to the Clostridium difficile infection epidemic in the US, which he says by one measure has killed over 100,000 people a year, there are now over 300 US centers that have performed fecal transplants, to try to save the life of patients infected with Clostridium difficile. (I had no idea that Clostridium difficile was killing so many people. The figure of 100,000 per year sounds high, but even the CDC say that 14,000 people are killed a year.)
  14. beaverfury

    beaverfury beaverfury

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    I was surprised to read that fecal bacteria will survive freezing, with perhaps only a small change in bacteroidetes to firmicutes ratio.

    https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/managing-human-waste-in-the-wild/bjn1lvtHsGc
    Update : As some of you may know I have been running labs on the
    survival of bacteria in feces since last October in a specially
    designed
    cold chamber that simulates the temperature cycles on the surface of
    the
    lower [Kahiltna] glacier [7,200 feet at 63 degrees latitude in
    Alaska]. After 125 days of 24 hr. freeze thaw cycles and exposure to
    UV light all of the bacteria is still very alive and well!

    '.. fecal bacteria is quite resilient and as far as we can
    tell, fecal bacteria is preserved in arctic/freezing environment for
    long periods of time.'

    At the very least you could store your own sample in the freezer and after undergoing a course of antibiotics could replace your own bacterial biome. (Depending on your illness and purpose).
    Though i do like the sound of this-

    taniaaust1 likes this.
  15. MishMash

    MishMash *****

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    Hmm, this goes against everything I've heard on bacteria in modern society. But okay.
  16. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I am sure your have heard the accounts of many people whose ME/CFS was caused by catching a virus, and who say that their allergic sensitivities were much increased after acquiring the virus. This is just an example of how catching a virus from another person in then leads to allergies.
  17. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    We were always told at Naturopathy college that the natural bowel flora can take 12 mths to recover after an antibiotic treatment.

    So the fact that it could be frozen and then put back after treatment.. does sound great for those who have a healthy bowel system.
    snowathlete likes this.
  18. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    coincidental you said that.. I was actually joking about super donors for this to my boyfriend last week as it made sense to me that there would be "super donors" for faeces donation with some having exceptional bowel flora.

    I also asked my boyfriend last week (just to see what he'd say as I was curious).. if he'd donate his faeces to me for a faecal transplant. I was really surprised as he was hesistant to say yes (he's usually very medically minded and open about things but he developed a case of nerves lol and wouldnt even give a yes... best I got was a "maybe" and then all these nervous questions about.. you mean with a doctors approval). haha I think he thought I was being serious and may of wanted it then and there. (it was amusing watching him squirm)

    I guess if he has trouble with the thought of giving someone such a donation.. I guess most others would have big issues with this.
  19. medfeb

    medfeb Senior Member

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    There was an interesting Scientific American article that talked about the role that friendly gut bacteria - including Bacteriodes fragilis that Hip mentioned - play in maintaining our immune systems by boosting the anti-inflammatory immune response.


    "Mazmarrian and his team at Caltech have discovered that a common microorganism Barteroides fragilis,which lives in some 70 percent of people, helps to keep the immune system in balance by boosting its anti-inflammatory
 arm. Their research began with observations that
 germ-free mice have defective immune systems,
with diminished function of regulatory T cells. When the researchers introduced B.fragilis to the mice, the balance between the pro-inflammatory and anti-inflammatory T cells was restored, and the rodents' immune systems functioned normally...B.fragilis provides us with a profoundly beneficial effect that our own DNA for some reason doesn't provide,"

    Noting the loss of some of these commensual bacteria as a result of lifestyle changes (and I would guess antibacterial usage), the article hypothesizes that the loss of B. fragilis (and its signaling to the immune system to churn out regulatory T cells) may be associated with the rise in autoimmune diseases.


    Link to the article summary. The full article is not online but there's other research on line
    garcia likes this.
  20. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    LOL! Yes....it's like a very strange dream, only real.

    Hello there, you look very healthy to me. :rolleyes: Can I ask you for a poo specimen please? I want to test it and make sure it's free of parasites. And I might need some more of your poo later, to toss into my blender, mix up with some saline and then inject into my bum to heal my long term chronic neuro immune disease. No, I am not crazy, though most of the medical community thinks I am, but I can assure you that it's THEM and not me that is the problem. It's a long story. I can suggest a reading list if you'd like. Now, could I please have some of your poo?
    taniaaust1 and Marlène like this.

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