Fecal microbiota transplantation broadening its application beyond intestinal disorders

[lansbergen]

You could run a few tests to see that, no?

If there were tests for every dangerous pathogen but sadly there ain't.

 

[natasa778]

People on the resistant starch thread are reporting that tiny doses or prebiotics and/or probiotics are causing them problems. This is such a contrast with what the Borody FMT study seems to show.

I wonder if the intolerance /bad reaction to probiotics could be linked to SIBO - presence of (otherwise good) bacterial where they shouldn't be present. In which case taking probiotics is adding insult to injury ...?

PS starch intolerance and absorption issues can be downstream of SIBO ...

 

[Sasha]

I wonder if the intolerance /bad reaction to probiotics could be linked to SIBO - presence of (otherwise good) bacterial where they shouldn't be present. In which case taking probiotics is adding insult to injury ...?

The reactions don't appear to be SIBO reactions, particularly, and don't seem to be happening necessarily in people with diagnosed SIBO. I don't think it's a SIBO issue. That's my impression, at any rate.

For example, when I took Prescript Assist last year, it gave me terrible migraines and an outbreak of cold sores. With C. Butyricum, I got joint pain. All sorts of stuff seems to be going on with people!

 

[natasa778]

The supplement included a number of species, but I think my reaction may have been due to lactobacillus salivarius. It's a strange probiotic that acts a bit like an antibiotic, in that it kills quite a lot of other gut bacteria, which is why it's sometime used for diarrhoea. And since my nasty reation to that, I can't tolerate any off-the-shelf probiotics any more.

see my post above. Here another decent one on SIBO
http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/121112p16.shtml
The use of probiotics in SIBO patients is controversial.1,2 Although probiotics may worsen symptoms at first, many patients benefit from trying to rebalance their gut flora. A slow and gradual introduction of probiotics free of lactose, inulin, fructooligosaccharides or prebiotics can facilitate patient tolerance

 

[natasa778]

I have considered FMT in the past, however at this point I dare not, and not just because of the pathogen risk. I certainly don't want a huge load of lactate-producing species dumped in my GI tract.

In which case a trial of a 'synthetic' poop pill might be worth considering? Saying that not sure if/when those will be available, and how heavily regulated, ie if rx will be needed. Then there is the SIBO issue to consider, if taking orally, and god knows what else... But at least the unknown pathogen risk should be next to zero?

 

[Bob]

For example, when I took Prescript Assist last year, it gave me terrible migraines and an outbreak of cold sores. With C. Butyricum, I got joint pain. All sorts of stuff seems to be going on with people!

I'm glad you mentioned that, Sasha. (It will make me extra-extra-cautious about trying any further probiotics.) Sounds like a horrible reaction.

 

[adreno]

In which case a trial of a 'synthetic' poop pill might be worth considering? Saying that not sure if/when those will be available, and how heavily regulated, ie if rx will be needed. Then there is the SIBO issue to consider, if taking orally, and god knows what else... But at least the unknown pathogen risk should be next to zero?

Not sure why pills would be safer? Both can be screened for known pathogens. However, the problem of species selection still stands. As said, I wouldn't want a load of lactate producing species dumped in my gut. That might be fine for someone otherwise healthy, but PWMEs often have problems clearing excess lacate. I am much more interested in select lactate utilizing species that produce butyrate.

 

[Sasha]

I'm glad you mentioned that, Sasha. (It will make me extra-extra-cautious about trying any further probiotics.) Sounds like a horrible reaction.

I don't think it's necessarily an argument for avoidance, just for starting at low doses. Some people on the resistant starch thread say that they don't bother with probiotics that don't give some indication of immune (?) effects at higher doses (if I've understood that correctly).

In the case of my cold sores, some saw that as a good sign - herpes needs to be reactivated to be destroyed by the immune system (I think).

I've started Prescript Assist again in the last couple of days at a lower dose and so far, I'm not seeing bad effects.

But this dealing with micro-doses (1/8 capsule of Prescript Assist, 1/8 tablet of C. Butyricum where the recommended daily dose for 'normal' people is 18 tabs a day) really does make me wonder if all hell would break loose for PWME with a faecal transplant. Or maybe it would all go instantly right, who knows?

 

[natasa778]

Not sure why pills would be safer? Both can be screened for known pathogens.

Synthetic poo pills would not have pathogens as they are produced by growing only selected flora from a 'selection' of donor poops But I agree the question of intolerance would still stand...

 

[Bob]

I don't think it's necessarily an argument for avoidance, just for starting at low doses.

For me personally, it's a helpful note of caution after my recent experience of probiotics.

 

[Wayne]

Just got done reading the book "Brain Maker", by David Perlmutter (which I thought was very good). I made a couple of posts on THIS THREAD regarding that book. Thought I'd mention on this thread that Perlmutter is a big believer in the potential of the burgeoning fields of FMT and probiotics of all kinds.

He considers rectal implantation of probtiotics to be a very powerful therapy--and describes a patient of his with Tourette's Syndrome who improved dramatically almost immediately. He describes FMT to be even MORE powerful, and relates the story of a man with MS who recovered completely using them.

One thing I take from this for myself--and possibly for others with ME/CFS, is that it makes sense for me to approach this cautiously, starting out with the lesser powerful therapy--rectally implanted probiotics. He mentions certain probiotics are better for colon health, and others are better for small intestine health. It would also seem to make sense to start with one probiotic at a time, instead of starting with a broad spectrum probiotic.

Lots of things to consider, and Perlmutter readily admits there's SOOooo much we don't know yet. He's a big believer in the potential however, and on the last page of the epilogue, mentioned a recent article in Nature magazine which aligns with his own beliefs.

Gut-Brain Lnks Grab Neuroscientists

Regarding the potential dangers that have been mentioned on this thread from fecal implants, I concur completely. It reminds me that blood transplants also have their own dangers. I've always thought that if I ever needed surgery, I would be sure to set aside some of my own blood so as not to have to depend on donated blood of unknown quality.

I think the epilogue (What the Future Holds) in "Brain Maker" would be an interesting read for those who have an interest in this topic, You can read it on Amazon by clicking on the link, clicking on the image of the book on the left, going to the table of contents, and then clicking on epilogue.
-
Notable quotes from the epilogue:

During World War II, German soldiers in Africa confirmed the efficacy of the Bedouin practice of consuming fresh warm camel feces as a treatment for bacterial dysentery. -- Perlmutter makes another notable comment: "I trust that we'll find other ways of performing this procedure to take the repugnance out of it." ​

 

[alex3619]

It is my personal belief that bacterial dysbiosis plays a large part in the pathogenesis of all kinds of currently mysterious neurodegenerative and immune diseases

The appeal of this hypothesis is that these disorders have arisen in parallel with big changes in population diets. Our gut bacterial population is strongly influenced by what we eat. I think its unlikely its completely correct, but if its only correct in half the cases then that is hundreds of millions of people who may be helped. I think this is an area that is getting more and more attention from scientists.

 

[alex3619]

If there were tests for every dangerous pathogen but sadly there ain't.

What can be done to minimize risk, butt this still requires a lot of research, is to isolate beneficial strains and culture them as a pure strain. Then strains can be mixed to develop the therapeutic treatment. This will not completely eliminate risks from bacterial viruses or other pathogens living in bacteria.

 

[LivingwithFibro]

Love to see more discussion about this! Recently a friend who had a lot of illnesses got an FMT and her depression went from 8 to 2 overnight...she is fully healed.

 

[Wayne]

got an FMT and her depression went from 8 to 2 overnight...she is fully healed.

Well, that's pretty impressive! -- Interestingly, there are reports that people who begin using coffee enemas notice immediate improvements in depression. It was actually first documented in the New England Journal of Medicine back in 1922.

 

[LivingwithFibro]

Well, that's pretty impressive! -- Interestingly, there are reports that people who begin using coffee enemas notice immediate improvements in depression. It was actually first documented in the New England Journal of Medicine back in 1922.

Why do you think that would be? I mean why coffee enemas specifically?

 

[Jacque]

I too read the Book Brain Maker and it was VERY good... and am considering the probiotic implants or even fecal implants! And oddly enough on VICE (HBO series) they talked about the up and coming medicine of fecal implants...they are having 90% success treating CDIFF and are saying in the future that they believe this therapy will cross over into RA, ALZheimers, Depression, and other immune disorders...

I just had a THREE MONTH complete remission with a grounding pad and pillow case.. i was sure i had walked out of the torture chamber... only to have the beasts return a little at a time.. I guess EBV and HHV6 are very adaptive... GREAT!!

The 2 remissions I have had were amazing... let me know what I am missing out on and what would capable of doing if I didn't have this BEAST in my body... It was a real mind**** to have it come back after weeks of feeling FABULOUS.... If only I could figure out what drove those beasts into remission and keep them there!!! GRRR

I am also exploring www.ulvrx.com to treat the viruses.. I guess in Asia they are using this with great success for EBV ... and treat EBV very seriously bc it is pre cancerous.... my worry is how bad the here will be bc I have the bio toxin issue also...

SO COMPLICATED!!!

So Wayne did you do the probiotic transplant? I have the instructions on how you start with Salt water and baking soda first...followed by a coffee enema...followed by the probiotics... which I have..

Curious which ones you decided to use???

Jac