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Feb. 2 TV Segment - Local mother recounts son's bad vaccine reaction

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Wayne, Feb 3, 2015.

  1. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    I'm guessing yesterday's 2-minute news segment from a San Diego TV station will add to the current national debate on vaccinations. The following link will take you to the video story and the transcript.

    Local mother recounts son's bad vaccine reaction

    A notable part of the transcript:
    ...............................................................

    My Own Take: --- It's hard for me to imagine how anybody who watches this video could seriously doubt the progression of symptoms that began immediately after the vaccination didn't eventually result in autism. But "U.S. health officials" would never ever admit to even a single incidence of this happening, as it would upend their "three decades of research have shown vaccines are safe".

    The reason I'm posting this story is because of the extraordinary number of members on this board who have noted the role of vaccinations in their own illness progression.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2015
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  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Not to deny vaccines can have side effects, and may precipitate ME/CFS, especially in the case of hepatitis B vaccine.

    However, the other side of the coin is the vast number of members on this board whose own illness progression was due to lack of vaccination.

    If we as children were given vaccines against coxsackievirus B, echovirus, parvovirus B19, EBV, cytomegalovirus, HHV-6 and HHV-7 — all the viruses associated with ME/CFS or known to trigger ME/CFS — it is most likely that the vast majority of us on this forum would never have developed ME/CFS.

    We should all be campaigning for the development of vaccines against these viruses; although it won't save us, it would mostly likely be highly effective in mostly eradicating ME/CFS in future.

    However, there certainly needs to be more research and more openness about vaccine safety. As discussed in this thread, it's quite possible that the ill effects of vaccines arise from the adjuvant placed in them (an adjuvant is a compound that modifies the behavior of the immune system).

    If it is just the adjuvant causing most of the side effects, then research should be focused on this, and a safer adjuvant developed. That way we could have all the disease-preventing benefits of vaccines, but without the adverse effects, or at least reduced adverse effects.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2015
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  3. jepps

    jepps Senior Member

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    This link says another side of the vaccine: the polio vaccine smooths the way for chronic enteroviruses:

    http://rense.com/general92/polio.htm
    The Author of the Article is Dr. Richard Bruno, Director of Fatigue Management Programs and The Post-Polio Institute at Englewood (NJ)

    I do not know, if babys born with a diseased gut should be get vaccines. My daughter had a strong cerebral membral irritation after a tetanus vaccine, I always had severe reactions to vaccines.
    I assume, with our diseased gut we can not react adequate to a vaccine, never mind the kind of vaccine.
    Fortunately I learned from all members of Phoenix Rising, how to treat our gut:) thank you:bow:. My whole family is on the programme.
     
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  4. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi @Hip,

    I always appreciate your thoughtful and informative posts. In that light, I would ask, "what percentage of certainty would you apply to your above statement?" I myself have always felt a vaccination injury in grade school weakened my immune system, and opened up the door for the kind of viruses and bacterial infections that pwME/CFS are prone to.

    In my case, I've come to believe Lyme infections (which I currently deal with) could be put into the "opportunistic infections" category. And what about the proliferation of autoimmune diseases since the advent of vaccinations? These are just opinions of course, not trying to say it's validated scientifically. -- I wouldn't recommend any kind of vaccination for anybody with ME/CFS--and if asked, I would discourage it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2015
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Well, I think your question could be best answered by those patients who developed ME/CFS after catching a viral infection. I am one of these. I certainly feel certain that I would not have developed ME/CFS if I had not caught that virus (not to mention not have developed the horrendous anxiety, anhedonia, depression symptoms the virus also seemed to rapidly trigger in me, and in a few others that caught it).

    So if I had been protected from catching that virus by a vaccine, then I think the chances are I would be a very healthy individual right now.

    But the issue extends further than just ME/CFS. Type 1 diabetes has been linked to enterovirus, so an enterovirus vaccine might have the effect of greatly reducing this disease also. And some researchers think that multiple sclerosis will be eliminated once we develop and EBV vaccine.


    By the way, according to this letter published by Dr John Chia, he finds that vaccination was the likely trigger in 1.5% of the ME/CFS cases he deals with. By comparison, he attributes 55% of cases to enterovirus infection, 9% to Chlamydia pneumoniae, 3% to EBV, 1.5% to CMV, and 1% to mold exposure.


    Quite possibility there is a connection, and this increase in autoimmune diseases might be linked to the adjuvants in vaccines.

    This post summarizes vaccine safety researcher Dr Yehuda Shoenfeld, who says that the only vaccine that has never been linked to triggering any autoimmune disease is Pneumovax; all the others are linked to triggering autoimmunity. Now Pneumovax just so happens to be the only vaccine that does not contain any adjuvants. Interesting, isn't it?


    What was the nature of the injury you had?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2016
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  6. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    It's more likely that you already had a weakened immune system, possibly the genetic factor in ME, and that the vaccination given to someone with a weak immune system caused problems.

    Vaccines are not entirely safe for people with immune disorders. That is well-established. Giving live virus vaccines to people who are immune impaired can cause serious problems, which is why people with known immune dysfunction are advised to avoid live virus vaccines. The problem for most PWME is that we didn't know we had immune dysfunction before we got the vaccines. It is too easy for us to assume that the vaccine caused the ME rather than to see that the problem may have existed long before and the vaccine was just a trigger... no worse than getting the illness itself (and possibly better as the wild version is typically stronger and could have caused an even worse reaction).

    Case in point: We know my daughter had ME since she was 12yo, but she was largely in remission for the next 5 years. We would not have known she had ME except that she and I got sick at the same time and I didn't recover. Consequently, we had her evaluated and diagnosed shortly after I was. She had occasional crashes, but was mostly relatively healthy.

    Unfortunately, when she got her pre-college immunizations, she was given a live virus chicken pox (HHV-4) vaccine. If I hadn't been sick in bed at the time, I would have questioned that. My husband believed the doctor who, when asked, told him there would be no problem with any of the vaccines for someone with ME. :rolleyes:

    Daughter crashed severely after the vaccination and didn't recover. The HHV-4 live virus probably reactivated the EBV and HHV-6 (herpes viruses are known to trigger reactivations of each other). If we had not already known she had ME, we might have thought the vaccine caused the ME, but it didn't. The ME caused the bad reaction to the vaccine, as would most immune dysfunctions.

    So for me, it comes down to this: Yes, live virus vaccines are bad for the very, very few people with immune dysfunction, including PWME. We should not have live virus vaccines. That does not mean the vaccines will cause ME in people with intact immune systems, nor that people with intact immune systems shouldn't have vaccines just because a rare few of us can't. In fact, we want people who can be vaccinated safely to do so so that those of us who can't will benefit from herd immunity.

    A basic principle of science -- correlation is not causation. Just because two (or more) things happen together, doesn't mean one caused the other. One could be the cause, the other could be the cause, something entirely different could be causing both things, or it could be a complete coincidence that the two things happened together.

    Adjuvents and preservatives in vaccines, OTOH, could be causing problems in people with chemical sensitivities. Adjuvents may aggravate autoimmune conditions in people predisposed to them. It is probably safer to avoid preservatives and adjuvents if one is sensitive.
     
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  7. jepps

    jepps Senior Member

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    Sorry to hear this, SOC. And best wishes to you and your daughter.

    The vaccine is not the cause for ME. But if someone has leaky gut, we know, that the blood-brain-barrier is also leaky. A healthy reaction to a vaccine should be, that the immune system reacts to the viruses, and we build antibodies. The vaccine should not lay in the brain. But when the blood-brain-barrier is open because of leaky gut, the virus and the carrier substances lay in the brain. We do not know, what kind of long term damage the vaccine does in the brain and in the nerves. The percentage of damage because of the vaccine might be much more higher than the documented 1,5 %.

    We have several bad reactions after several kinds of vaccines (polio, tetanus, diphterie...) in the family, one died, one had brain bleeding and landed in the surgery, we are all not documented as vaccine damage. For me the cause is leaky gut, not the vaccine.

    I hope sometimes we have better methods than vaccines. I hope and I am sure, that the researchers on the microbiom will find new and safe probiotics.

    Meanwhile we can work on the gut with the methods and informations we have.
     
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  8. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi SOC,

    I'm sorry to hear about your daughter's relapse after receiving those vaccinations.

    I appreciate you taking the time to articulate so well some of your family's challenges--very interesting and informative. There's a number of points I may get around to replying to, and probably would tonight, but I can't seem to figure out how to use the multi-quote feature--I wish I could figure out how that thing worked! o_O

    To touch on just one point tonight however, I ran across an article today by a woman who became extremely ill (paralysis and CNS damage) after receiving a Gardasil vaccination. Here's what she wrote in an article entitled, "Gardasil: The Worst Thing That Ever Happened to Me.
    You had mentioned a weakened immune system due to genetics. Do you think somebody who's immune system is being challenged by a current illness could be just as susceptible to a severe adverse reaction as somebody who had a genetic predisposition?

    To clarify, I'm not some kind of rabid anti-vaxxer. Vaccines can be effective, but it seems clear to me there are glaring deficiencies in our health care system when it comes to ensuring vaccines are as safe as they can be. I suspect that in the future, no vaccinations will be given until a complete genetic profile is completed. And if more stringent safety protocols are adopted, there will mostly likely be FAR few serious vaccination injuries.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2015
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  9. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    I don't disagree with most of your points. The Gardasil vaccine was the one that I made sure my daughter and husband knew not to allow the doctor to give her because I knew it was a live virus vaccine that would be bad for her and she was not at risk for HPV at that point. Fortunately, she and her fiance have chosen to live their lives in such a way that her risk of exposure to HPV is practically nil, so she can safely avoid that particular vaccination. I don't see the point in unnecessary vaccinations any more than I support avoiding all vaccinations.

    I agree that our healthcare system should do a better job of identifying at-risk populations before administering vaccinations. Sadly, the system is more concerned with cost containment than in protecting the few people likely to be harmed by indiscriminate vaccine use.

    I can't say I know much about it, but I think it is certainly possible that a person with a current illness could have an adverse reaction to a vaccination. In fact, most (if not all) vaccines come with the warning not to give them to someone who is currently ill.
     
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  10. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    Thanks! :)

    Perhaps I should clarify that my daughter crashed and didn't recover until she got aggressive treatment. A year after the vaccination-induced crash, she started on Valcyte. It was another couple of years before she was back into a tenuous remission. She currently fluctuates between 7 and 9 on the PR activity scale depending on how much she challenges her body. She hasn't had PEM in years, but still has occasional stretches where she needs to nap in the day or evening. She doesn't do deliberate aerobic exercise or engage in competitive sports. I'm not confident she could if she tried -- without crashing, I mean. However, she functions normally and works in a very cognitively demanding field. It's not perfect. She's not cured. But most of us would be glad to be where she is.
     
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  11. jepps

    jepps Senior Member

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    I read the story in your thread, and I am very happy about it.:balloons: Best wishes furthermore:tulip:

    You wrote about a good aspect: it is known, that somebody with acute infections should not be vaccined. But what is when we were born with a chronic infection?

    I am treating the gut as described in the RS thread since one year, additionally I take homoepathic remedies. I am watching the process with laboratory diagnosis and bioenergetic diagnosis. The diagnosis shows, that fungi and parasite infections, which never showed at any laboratory test, were deep in the tissues. By adressing the gut, they are excreted. Over time other infections come up (streptococcus, staphylococcus, at time the coxsackie).
    As fungi suppresses permanent the immune system, maybe I get better in fighting the other chronic infections.
    As we have a long history of severe caries in the family, I assume, we all have severe chronic infections of candida+streptococcus, we are born with these infections, have therefore a tendency to autoimmunity and vaccine damage.
     
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  12. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    Its hard to know that, some of my vaccines never even took. I had to have them over and over and in the end I still dont know if the vaccine worked for me. (Having Hep B vaccine many mulitple times as it wouldnt take, could of been of been a factor in my case).
     
  13. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    The Gardasil vaccine is known to cause that sleeping sickness illness (I dont know if those ones are recovering from this).

    Children are certainly getting autism from vaccinations. I know someone in which it happened to her baby boy. He was a normal baby, always smiling and babbling, till he had his vaccines.. he no longer smiles etc and now has an severe Autism diagnoses. He was a different baby within 24hrs of the vaccine.
    .......

    My eldest got a bad reaction from a vaccine.. she seemed to develop what the vaccine was supposed to stop. It freaked the doctors out, they didnt understand it but it really worried them. They made me contact all the mothers and babies who had been around her to warn them may of caught the disease (two doctors I saw believed she may of got it some how from the vaccine thou they were confused).

    My sister due to me telling to think hard before having her children vaccinated.. she held off due to this and finally got the 3 children vaccinated when the oldest was about 9. Crazily all three of them then developed different problems right after that vaccine.

    The eldest of 8-9 years.. her arm.. swelled and majorly bruised and was painful. It looked shocking.

    Within 2-3 weeks of the vaccine.. another one of the children developed asthma (I think that was the 6 year old). My sister and her partner and none of the children before this had asthma

    The third child, the vaccine semed to affect her general health and very shortly after the vaccine she got sick and kept getting ill (from memory I think she was vomiting etc).. she was sick over a month. She was about 4??. This child hasnt been the same since and that vaccine was 2-3 years ago, I rarely get to visit family but when I have, this child has thrown up 2 out of the last 3 times Ive been there in that time. The child has had poor health ever since.

    My sister was horrified at the results of this first vaccination for all the children she'd held off for so long (triple antigen shot.. with polio and all the rest). All I could say was, I did warn you (I really tried to convince my sister not to vaccinate due to my reseach on it and what Ive seen. We have Aspergers in my family too so another reason to stay away from them after what I saw with my friends baby in past).

    Ive been strongly anti vaccination since my child caught what a vaccine as supposed to prevent and to see just how much knowledge doctors lacked with them not then knowing what to do when a child gets something from vaccine.. they told me they werent sure if she was contagious or not.

    Ive also seen how they "fake" epidemics to encouage parents to vaccinate.. they did that in a country town I lived in many years ago. My fully unvaccinated daughter 4 at the time they faked the epidemic going on in the town and it was in all the medias this so called epidemic in own town

    My unvaccinated child got dragged into it, she got a cough and was diagnosed with whooping cough too, thou she wasnt tested (this is what happened with all the kids, they werent testing them.. any slightest cough "you have whooping cough",

    I think there was only TWO children who were proven to actually have, interestingly both were fully vaccinated children!!

    I had child completely unvaccinated at preschool and in the big child care cente, while the other (who never received full course of her shots) was at the primary school and the out of after school care there.

    I didnt get or give her the meds the doctor told me I must get as I believed it was just a normal cold cough and she would be better within 4-5 day (and she was). I didnt believe them when they diagnosed whooping cough (she was at doctors for something else at time). It didnt even sound like it!! (my sister had whooping cough when she was a baby so I know what it sounds like).

    They just wanted to add children to the statistics of the "epidemic" in our town so more people would vaccinate and the country local doctors who were very strongly into vaccination supported this deception. Shocking misleading of public saying all these kids with the slightest cold had whooping cough to start a big vaccination campaign throughout the whole state.

    After seeing how the general public was mislead about what was going on in our town, I ended up becoming an actual member of my states anti vaccination group.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2015
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  14. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    Basic science: correlation is not causation. See above.

    Just because something happens after something else, it doesn't necessarily mean that the first caused the second. I tripped on the carpet within 5 minutes of getting out of bed this morning. Does that mean getting out of bed causes carpet-tripping? My car broke down withing 24 hrs of a full moon. Does that mean the full moon caused my car to break down? You need a lot more evidence than B happened after A to prove causation. A mechanism showing how A causes B is a big help in that regard. Maybe, and I consider it a long shot at this point, there will eventually be evidence that shows a causal relationship between vaccines and autism. At the moment, no such evidence exists.

    In the meantime, unvaccinated children are ticking timebombs for infants, the elderly, transplant patients, and other people (like PWME) with immune dysfunction. Keep your unvaccinated children far away from me. I have enough health problems without being exposed to dangerous viruses that were practically eliminated (in my part of the world) years ago.
     
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  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It does not necessarily mean the first caused the second, but it is certainly mighty suspicious if personality changes or autism manifest within hours of vaccination, and I am sure you agree that such incidences definitely require further scientific investigation.


    One thing to be aware of: the research says that vaccines do not cause autism, but this research is epidemiologically-based, and epidemiological studies are flawed when it comes to determining whether vaccines can trigger cases of autism. This is because epidemiological studies look at populations statistically, and are thus unable to determine whether a vaccine might simultaneously both cause and prevent autism by two different mechanisms, in roughly equal measure.

    If a vaccine both causes and prevents autism by two different mechanisms (and I suspect this may be the case), then the epidemiological statistics may show that, on average, the use of that vaccine in a population does not lead to any increase in autism. However, the vaccine will nevertheless be triggering cases of autism.

    How might a vaccine like the measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) both cause and prevent autism at the same time?

    Well, the MMR vaccine, by reducing the incidence of rubella infection in the general population, will likely lower the incidence of autism as a result. This is because there will be a lower number of congenital rubella cases, and congenital rubella has been linked to causing autism (ref: here). And indeed, this study suggests that the MMR vaccine may be preventing autism in the population by this mechanism of congenital rubella prevention.

    But this MMR vaccine might also trigger cases of autism as well. Autism might conceivably be triggered by the immunomodulatory effects of the adjuvant contained within the vaccine (and this study certainly suggests this is possible), or perhaps by some other factor. So if this MMR vaccine also triggers autism in some cases, this will tend to negate the gains made by the MMR in preventing autism, bringing you back to square one.

    Thus you may have a situation where the epidemiological studies statistically show that the MMR vaccine does not, on average, increase the incidence of autism in a population, yet the MMR vaccine may nevertheless be actually responsible for triggering autism in some children, via say an adjuvant mechanism.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2015
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  16. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    SOC, not sure if you're aware of this statement by William Thompson. My understanding is it's anticipated he'll be testifying in Congress about this:
    Not sure what you might think of the reporting done by Sharyl Attkisson, but she recently commented on the William Thompson situation, and penned an article, which included the following story about Hannah Poling. Lots to consider, but you have to wonder how a federal government agency can "seal" the results of a vaccination injury case (last paragraph). Not exactly a national security risk.
    CBS News Segment by Sharyl Attkisson - 2 Minutes
     
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  17. jepps

    jepps Senior Member

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  18. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    I've been doing a fair amount of research recently on vaccines, and found the following article very good, and the highly educated author quite articulate--his introduction is below. He claims to have spent thousands of hours researching vaccine safety. One notable item in this piece is his mentioning that Japan banned the MMR vaccine seven years ago.

    An Angry Father’s Guide to the Measles Vaccine
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2015
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  19. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    My understanding is that people who are vaccinated with live viruses become contagious. So I don't understand the argument that the immuno-comprised are at risk from unvaccinated people, but aren't from vaccinated people who can (apparently quite easily) transmit disease.
     
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  20. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Should the Recently Vaccinated be Quarantined to Prevent Outbreaks?
     
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