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Fasting - specifically practically with ME/CFS and methylation treatment

Discussion in 'Spirituality and ME/CFS' started by snowathlete, Mar 16, 2012.

  1. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    So, I've been thinking of doing a fast for a while - for spiritual reasons.

    Whereas I would like to fast for maybe three days, I think it might be more realistic for me to just do 24 hours, but I still have some concerns;
    practical concerns.
    As I have ME/CFS what my body can take is likely different to that of a normal healthy person and to further complicate things I take tablets for sleep (Amitryptaline and Melatonin) and i currently follow Fred's methylation protocol. Im not sure what problems there might be taking this stuff on an empty stomach.

    Does anyone have a clue about this? I may need to go see my GP and ask, and If needs be then I will, but I could do without another trip to the doctors surgery, especially as I know I will get the "I dont reccomend it" speech that I seem to get with every visit nowadays. So if anyone has any experience or knowledge in this area, I could really use it.

    Thanks
  2. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    I became interested in fasting for health reasons over a decade ago and read a couple of books on the subject. (Remember books? That was pre-internet days.) I learned that fasting was not recommended for people with hypoglycemia, such as myself, and that if hypoglycemics did fast, it should be done under a physicians supervision. I could not afford that, so have not fasted.

    They did recommend that a person start with a one-day fast, then move on to longer ones, if desired. They were opposed to a water fast, saying that was too severe. I know some religious fasts last from sunup to sundown. You might consider that.

    The period before and after the fast are as important as the fast itself. You should not go directly from your regular diet to a fast, then directly back to your regular diet. I think it was 3 days you were to spend both reducing your diet before the fast and increasing it afterward. I dont think the calories were reduced, just the variety of foods that you eat.

    I think you should definitely ask your GP about the sleep meds. Can you call the office and leave your question with one of the staff, so they can ask and call you back?

    I dont have a clue about Freds protocol.
  3. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    Possibly yes, thats probably worth a go. Thanks for suggesting it.

    Hopefully someone else can chime in with an opinion regarding the methylation stuff.
  4. baccarat

    baccarat Senior Member

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    I don't think there may be an issue with taking those supplements on an empty stomach as I have done a few times (not amitryptilline).
    I did a 3-day fast a couple of years ago and based on that experience I cannot recommend it, it was too long. It was actually 2 days and half. When I woke up on day 3 my heart was pounding at over 150pm and my ears were buzzing like crazy. Not sure whether it was hypoglycemia or what but after a couple of tablespoon of honey on a slice of bread it gradually went away. That was it for me.
  5. Calathea

    Calathea Darkness therapy

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    People I know with ME who belong to a religion which involves fast days usually skip those days on medical grounds, as of course you are meant to according to the religion. I used to practise Judaism, and I simply couldn't handle the 25 hour fast for Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement). I gave up on it quite early on in the ME, when it was still mild to moderate. The Yom Kippur fast includes no liquids, but I think that at first I would try fasting with liquids, then a sort of near-fast where I ate but minimally, for instance I'd make up a batch of apple flapjacks so that I could quietly nip out of synagogue for ten minutes without disturbing the rest of the congregation (waving food in front of people fasting is not a nice thing to do!), and also so that I could think about it as little as possible for spiritual reasons. Admittedly this was fasting on top of trips to synagogue, and eventually I think I was just making it for about one hour at synagogue (you're meant to be there all day if you can, or at least a lot of it), but it totally knocked me flat. It may be interesting to hear from other people who have fasted for religious reasons, particularly Muslims who have observed Ramadan.

    Since you have been losing weight at an alarming rate, and ended up collapsing and having to be taken to hospital as an emergency recently, this does not seem the best time to be trying fasting.
  6. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    On the whole, im not really worried about the hospital thing (I didnt collapse by the way), that was down to not having enough potasium, and im now taking a higher dose. I also plan to up my dose a little while fasting as I obviously wont be getting any from a food source. So i feel like i have control of this.

    I guess my main concern is taking them on an empty stomach, whether that is likely to cause any problems, either because they might be too harsh on an empty stomach, or because maybe they wont get absorbed properly. Im especially thinking of potassium here, given recent events - I want to be sure that my body can still absorb it.

    Unless the supplements would cause a problem while fasting I plan to carry on taking them. I guess its cheating because I get some of my nutrients from them, but then I am ill, so I'm happy to do that.
  7. svetoslav80

    svetoslav80 Senior Member

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    My personal record is 8 days without food at all. It was very beneficial for both my chronic esophagitis and chronic infectious prostatitis (these are inflammatory disorders). It didn't have effect on my chronic pelvic pain syndrome unfortunately. For the record, I'm not sick of ME/CFS. I'm very interested if fasting can improve CFS. I can tell you that when done to restore health, fasting should be done for more than 3 days, because that's when ketosis begins and body starts to "eat" itself and clean the bad stuff. But I don't know how safe is for PWC to make fast longer than 3 days. Noone has shared such experience.
  8. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I have an opinion...if you are fasting you are not eating methionine and so maybe could just skip the methylation stuff. There will be nothing to methylate! Unless, of course, your methylation is not up to par and you need the time to play catchup. IMHO some or all of the B vitamins are irritating on an empty stomach. This is just me, but I would skip the methylation supplements (or maybe just take a single B complex) But I WOULD take my antioxidants (C,E,CoQ10), any hormones (D,DHEA,pregnenolone), and potassium gluconate in water (because you will not be intaking potassium food), and my cal.mag supplement. As you break down fat, it causes ketones and that's acidic so keep up with the alkaline minerals. I, personally, can't tolerate ketones so I do not fast, I always take a little carbohydrate so that the fat can be burned for fuel w/o causing ketones.

    Btw, I find a very low calorie diet (low fat, low protein, moderate carbs - th ecarbs to PRVENT ketones when fat is burned) cleans me out, makes me burn fat, clears my head, and agrees with me very well. So like 800 cal/day...it's not a fast but it leaves your stomach growling which feels great! I can only do it with these products because dieting slows your thyroid and it gives me low blood sugar, which these supplements prevent:

    http://www.iherb.com/Absolute-Nutrition-Thyroid-T-3-Original-Formula-180-Capsules/27664?at=0
    http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Coleus-Forskohlii-60-Veggie-Caps/18578?at=0

    The reason for low fat is because my body is using my own stored fat for fuel. Also you could add carnitine, as it helps you burn fat.

    Triffid

    P.S. Probably Freddd has a different opinion. It would be interesting to hear his.
  9. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    But that's not taking the metabolic problems of ME/CFS into account. There are indications that we cannot readily convert fat (or carbs) into ATP, so low-protein could be a problem for us. And since we can't really use stored fats to create ATP, it's difficult to know if cutting back calories so far would have any beneficial effect, or just make us feel even crappier.
  10. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Triffid133,

    I just saw your reply. I have been away several days. Lots of stuff going on in my life right now and I think my brain has about three functioning mitochondria at the moment. I will reply more later.
  11. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Oh, ok. I forgot to mention that my diet book says to take carnitine to be able to break down fat. But since I got on Freddd;s methylation protocol I make my own carnitine and I was tested in range. If you do not make enough of your own then you must supplement to burn fat.

    Trif

    Someone on here once alerted us to that magnesium is also needed to utilize ATP. idk other than that what it takes to break down fat and I am not saying 800 cal/day is a workable ongoing diet, only that it is better than a FAST. For surely with a FAST you cannot break down fat either! I have been diabetic twice and it runs in my family and I am putting in a STRONG PLUG for carbs as they PREVENT diabetes. (Studies prove it, see Reversing Diabetes by Dr. Julian Whittaker). You cannot break down fat for fuel w/o carbs so that is the most important thing IMHO.
  12. hoMEy

    hoMEy

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    personally think fasting is a bad idea with m.e. present. if the digestion is moving it's more likely your lymph is too and that's where detox lies. also your endocrime system needs some fats and starch to work, especially in it's compromised state. you need protein, carbohydrate, fat and veg fibre everyday and even then your ability to make good use of it will be limited. diet is key to being in the ball park for recovery, but it's unlikely that you'll do it on this alone, hence the need for a treatment you can ground too. there is a tendancy to impastience with gut issues and quick fixes never help, low and slow and constant is what is needed to return internal enviroment and intestinal integrity.
    Calathea likes this.
  13. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat Senior Member

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    About 6-7 years ago, when I had ME, but not as bad as now, I went on the Master Cleanse fast (where you drink a mixture of water, cayenne pepper, lemon juice and molasses). It provides a minimal amount of calories through the molasses, but not very much. I did it partly out of curiosity, and partly to clear up some digestive problems I was having. The first 24 hours were the hardest, and I almost gave up a couple of times during this period, but by the second day, I was no longer hungry. I experienced energy highs and lows - some ecstatic spiritual experiences, but much more common was me lying around not having any energy. I don't remember if I went to work during this time, but if I did, I'm sure I wasn't very functional. I think I went to a couple of grad school classes, but basically my mind wasn't working very well due to not having enough nutrients to sustain it. The digestive problems did subside during the fast, but I got back on solid foods too quickly after 9 days of fasting, and was right back where I started from digestively almost immediately.
    Nowadays, I fast for 24-36 hours if I am having indigestion, and this usually clears it up, but I don't see any reason for me to do a long fast again, as I don't think my body is built for fasting.
  14. svetoslav80

    svetoslav80 Senior Member

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    Tania from Australia claims she has fasted for 57 days solely on water. She has ME/CFS. For me this sounds impossible even for healthy person but who knows. I'm on my fifth day water fast and I feel like I'm gonna die.
  15. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I can only speak from experience. I could fast before CFS, I could not once I got sick. It seemed to mobilized toxins too fast to handle and I would get terribly sick. Particularly, as with ME/CFS I developed hypoglycemia.

    Sushi
  16. svetoslav80

    svetoslav80 Senior Member

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    Did you water fast or juice fast (before being sick), and how long?
  17. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi Svet,

    I tried different forms of fasting--water (impossible), freshly squeezed grape juice--fine before ME/CFS, horrible once I had it. Also tried fresh vegetable juice and still got very ill.

    Before CFS, I could water fast for 3 days, though it was hard. And I could do grapejuice for 10 days or so. There used to be a lot of talk about fasting on grapejuice.

    Best,
    Sushi
  18. Glynis Steele

    Glynis Steele Senior Member

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    Hi Svet,

    I was having a look at studies regarding IBS and SIBO, after reading Waverunners thread, which can be found here:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...yndrome-clearly-linked-to-gut-bacteria.17645/

    and I came across this study, which might help explain Improvements with your Chronic Prostatitis:

    http://www.researchgate.net/publica...inal_bacterial_overgrowth_effect_of_rifaximin

    When you are fasting it could be that you are starving gut bacteria out, perhaps?
  19. svetoslav80

    svetoslav80 Senior Member

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    Thanks for the info. Bacteria are hard to starve out. The bastards make some dirty tricks like going into latent state or whatever and they can survive more then an year without food. Being in latent state, bacteria can't do misery and I feel good. However, the wound won't heal without protein, so right after I start eating, bacteria start multiplying again.
  20. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    After checking with my doc I fasted (no food, just water) for 34 hours. It was fine health wise. Hard mentally because I spent the time reading and praying and I realised how much I normally do other stuff like browse the net to distract myself from the symptoms of ME.
    I feel I could have done longer but I did what I set out to do and feel pleased I did it.

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