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Fasciculations

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Phred, Aug 3, 2014.

  1. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    I'm hoping someone can help. I started separating out my adb12 dose from my mb12 dose about 5 days ago. I'm not doing the one a week dose of adb12, that @Freddd recommends, just not taking it at the same time as my mb12.

    The thing is that now I'm having the worst fasciculations. They are non stop. They seem to be isolated in my right leg. I feel them more at rest, but even at the store earlier today, I felt them twitchin' away. The right thigh feels like it's doing the Watusi.

    Does anyone know what I need more or less of to stop this? Is it a potassium thing? A folate thing? More b12 thing? More magnesium thing?

    Maybe I just need to go back to taking my adb12 and m12 at the same time again. I was hoping to give it a week to see if it made a difference. So far not liking the difference.

    Thanks in advance for any help anyone might have.
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Phred,

    Normally fasciculations that are not part of a disease process (ALS for instance) are considered benign "noise" in the nerves. I would suspect that you have a nerve with some kind of malfunction and the vitamins are causing it to become more active. If that is the case, then it could be an indication of healing. Nerves don't heal quietly. They have all sorts of pain and paresthesias and fasciculations while being damaged and while healing. I had hot and cold running fasciculations for 20 years and now after 11 years on Active B12 protocol, I have essentially none any more.

    Taking the MeCbl and AdoCbl at different times helps them each be better distributed and utilized.

    Are you taking LCF? That can help neuromuscular healing. I wouldn't stop because of fasciculations. That could very well be just the thing you have to go through during healing.
     
  3. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    Hi Fred,

    I'm definitely taking the LCF. I roll over in bed in the morning and taking it with my first dose of folate. Then I have coffee half an hour later.

    I've had random fasciculations for awhile now, but this is different. It is non stop. The laptop is bouncing on my leg as I type this. Very weird.

    Should I up my mb12? Would that help? Could it possibly be a potassium thing? I don't seem to have any other hypokalemia symptoms.

    I may have some PFD stuff going on right now. I have some cankers on my tongue. Could lack of folate cause the fasciculations?

    And now for a little scolding. Young man, I thought you were going to the mountains for some R&R. Go rest and enjoy yourself. (But I am gld you're here to answer questions. :p)
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    We haven't escaped yet. It's one thing after another. My partner has a dental emergency and appointment next week.

    Lack of MeCbl and/or mfolate can cause the cankers. They can blossom within a few days of paradoxical folate deficiency starting. I don't think potassium is associated.
     
  5. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    I have what may be an odd question. Can too little mb12 cause PFD? When I started taking the adb12 away from the mb12 I lowered my mb12. Now I seem to be getting the paradoxical stuff. I did up my mb12 by 5mg this morning, but the cankers still persist.

    I'm up to 21.6mg of folate, 10mg of adb12 and 14mg of mb12 plus the LCF, zinc, b-complex (the one you recommended) calcium/magnesium. I need to find an E and an Omega 3 without soy.


    I hope things go well for your partner. Hopefully things settle down too and you can get away.
     
  6. lampkld2

    lampkld2

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    Be wary of methylation protocol exacerbated neuro symptoms, as they should not be pushed through in all cases . My fasiculations were autoimmune related and methylation protocol made things worse. It will continue to do so until I reduce inflammation and autoimmunity downstream, I presume.
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Unfortunately many of the folate deficiency symptoms are also MeCbl deficiency symptoms, especially all the way to methyltrap which can happen with AdoCbl; blocking MeCbl by having too large a percentage and that is a very approximate estimate I made as to percentage and that is based on absorbed dose, not nominal dose.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2014
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    It's unfortunate that the water gets so muddied when B12/'folate deficiencies are suspected of several autoimmune diseases and methyltrap/folate deficiency triggers hyper responses and massively increased inflammation. When methylation triggers donut hole paradoxical foliate deficiency that is allowed to continue for sustained periods or maybe glutathione is taken at the same time causing methyltrap and hyper responses, possible auto immune responses and inflammation. Good luck and good health to you..
     
  9. lampkld2

    lampkld2

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    I don't think that was the case Freddd.

    I initially responded to the reaction by greatly increasing my dose of mb12 and mfolate, to obviate exactly the mechanism you mentioned. I took no glutathione.

    Only made things worse and sent me above new threshold of autoimmunity that I have yet to get back down from, despite being off the supplements for years.

    If the inflammatory response stems only from paradoxical folate deficiency, then why does methotrexate work in reducing inflammation and autoimmunity in certain conditions?
     
  10. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    I'm going to try to take a stab at this. If I'm wrong about any of it I'm sure someone will correct me.

    As I understand it Methotrexate inhibits the DHFR enzyme. This little guy is responsible for the conversion of folic acid. Using some logic skills and, no real research to back it up, (I know dangerous) it would seem blocking folic acid from the folate and/or methylation cycles would be a good thing. I don't know what happens to the unused folic acid (that is now not being converted because the drug is blocking it) but if it getting filtered through the liver it would be a good guess that's why long term use of Methotrexate can cause liver issues.

    The use of this drug doesn't disprove Fred's theory at all. Folic acid is blocked. That means any bioavailable form of folate ingested is actually being used and not blocked by folic acid. 5-MTHF will circumvent the drug so it is being used.

    Given the average north American diet is full of folic acid pumped into our food supply, I'm not surprised a drug like this would work. It stops the introduction of folic acid and allows whatever miniscule amounts of 5-MTHF are getting in to do its thing.

    I'd be very interested though to see the long term neurological effects on people from this drug. How much you wanna bet the pharmaceutical companies aren't following up on that though.
     
    ahmo likes this.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lampkid2,

    As I said, it muddies up the water. For decades the thought was that an autoimmune response to IF and the cells making it was thought to cause pernicious anemia. Then along came some studies that showed that the longer a person has had PA the more likely they are to have that autoimmune reaction, and at the beginning most did not have the autoimmune response.. With the timing as it is, a favored hypothesis had to go down the drain. It appears that the low B12, according to the research, causes the autoimmune reaction that then keeps them from being able to absorb B12. However, they are not considering the part folate deficiency might have played.

    There is no evidence of which I am aware that autoimmune problems heal, except a very few people with Hashimoto's (thought to be caused by low b12) that have had it reverse if still in the active stages with MeCbl etc.. Some want to blame demyelinations on autoimmune response but again, most of us with demyelinations don't have autoimmune responses, some do.

    An autoimmune response is a relatively less frequent response in all this for unknown reasons. Demyelination can be pinned down to being in evidence about two weeks after methyltrap starts. Autoimmune is not as easily pinned down.

    So there is what appears to be contradictory occurrences with autoimmune. There is something else going on that is being missed might be a viable hypothesis.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Phred,

    Interesting idea. Makes sense.
     
  13. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Lampkid2 (a diversion from the topic) Have you looked into low dose naltrexone? There's a very long thread here on pr (LDN). I'm one month into initiating it for autoimmune issues.
     

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