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EXERCISE and Folate and Potassium Balance

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Feb 8, 2012.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Sometimes it seems like it is impossible to win at this. I have just had 3 solid weeks of healing cheilitis and no IBS at all. A few days ago something shifted and I woke up with more energy and more mental clarity and just better all the way around. Also, with the exercise I was doing I had started noticably increasing muscle in my arms and upper body. This is where I had damaged nerves from the car wreck and atrophied muscles even before I got so sick. Also, we made a medium sized batch of yellow squash soup. We have been experimenting with seasonings and tried a new recipe. It was delicious and I probably had more than I should have. I ate it two days in a row in as a side dish with dinner that included other veggies. I also increased exercise a little. I increased the Nordic track to 25 minutes from 20 minutes and increased reps by 5 working with only 8 pound dumbbells. I'm not doing anything extreme. But here I am only 3 days after noticing the increase in muscle in the damaged areas and today I suddenly have low potassium spasms and increased cheilitis.

    We have been talking about balance a lot lately and after the best, most balanced 3 weeks I've had, it didn't take much to throw it out of balance. It isn't exersize intolerance exactly but if it were a lot worse maybe it would feel that way. Instead it's potassium down a little, nothing that 300mg a couple of times won't bring back to normal. Also, folate just turning the corner instead of a slam dunk. I'm thinking what if this has been a factor all along. It was much worse years ago before starting the Metafolin but then so was everything concerned with the paradoxical folate deficiency. We all have to eat and I try to eat what should be a good diet and it slams me. I exersize a little more and it throws the balance off and causes more cell formation and double whammy, low potassium and low folate.

    Finding and maintaining a balance is the trickiest part of this whole thing. It happened last summer very similarly when I went camping in the mountains; more climbing and walking, more exercise, and altitude which increases red cell production. I was hit much harder by both low potassium and low folate then. I posted about it, alttitude and hypokalemia and green drinks. This time it was squash instead of green drinks, but included exercise. And I do live at about 4700 feet so it isn't at sea level. It is high enough that people from sea level feel the difference. This is different from the slam dunk exercise intolerance before the adb12 and l-carnitine, but looking back it may have been a component back then. I had years of terrible uncontrollable spasms before I treid the potassium and constant paradoxical folate deficiency. Now it's much milder becasue my mitochondria work, and I am mostly rehabilitated but still it is a slipping out of balance without an energy crash.

    I'm going to continue my exercising but have to take more potassium and mfolate to bring it back in balance, and cut back on veggies, which always seem to creep back up.

    My left side was noticably lacking muscle compared to my right side since about 1980, 8 years after the wreck. Since I started the rehabilitation phase about 6-7 years ago that difference has almost disappeared. My muscles have become far more balanced and the terrible burning neurological pain in my back and shoulders has completely disapperared. Can damaged nerves from 30+years before heal?
     
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  2. adreno

    adreno Homo neanderthalensis

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    Since I started the protocol, one set of pushups will send me into low potassium symptoms. I checked my resting pulse before (60), and after (80). It stayed there for hours, until I finally got enough potassium into the cells.
     
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  3. L'engle

    L'engle moogle

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    Squash soup is delicious. Meanwhile people with every other health condition are being told to eat food like that and hating it! I would eat squash soup every day. I have been trying to keep down on the vegetables and up metafolin though. I take wheat grass buffered by metafolin to get a bit of vegetable nutrients. I'm been drinking stevia-heavy drinks and even chewing a chunk of ginger when i get low potassium symptoms and it seems to have a similar effect for me as the potassium tablets.

    Thanks for keeping us posted, this is pretty interesting.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    It's very clear I'm not alone in all this. So now maybe the big question, why is the balance so fragile? Has it always been that fragile? I have considered that it is because healing puts a sort of maximum strain on the body, which when healing has been continuous for years perhaps means that there are not any reserves as a buffer. I don't know. It's sure beats being down in the dumps all thw time though. I don't feel bad today, just aware of the warning signs. If I ignored it and didn't take corrective measures it would be a lot worse in a few days. Anyway, something to think about. I'm glad to hear from you that I am not so strange after all perhaps. That other people have bodies on the edge. This also fits in with my hypotheis of what starts the whole problem, a stressor pushing us over the edge on which we sit in a big way.
     
  5. Red04

    Red04 Senior Member

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    Would the folate in a few bowls of cereal (261mcg X 2) be enough to trigger paradoxical folate deficiency
     
  6. CJB

    CJB Senior Member

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    I'm gearing up to trying this protocol, but have been holding off because of these types of questions. I'm sure this has been asked/answered many times before, but my biggest question is how/why does the methylation block occur in the first place? I've been eating cultured vegetables for the last several months and slowly getting comfortable that I'm not going to poison myself and eating more and more each week. The difference in my digestion has been nothing short of spectacular. I'm wondering if this type of approach to healing the gut wouldn't lead to a natural restart of the cycle on its own; or are we condemned to taking these supplements and being at the mercy of trying to balance everything on our own instead of relying on the body to do the work?

    In spite of vastly improved digestion, I must add that other symptoms persist and my other best self-treatment is vigorous pacing and avoiding "too much".
     
  7. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Fred, you probably know more about this, but I'm wondering if it doesn't also involve the balance between not just folate and potassium, but b12 and potassium. I read somewhere that too much potassium can lower b12 (or maybe I dreamt that?!)

    And possibly the adrenals are affected or 'stressed' too much if we exercise (or "overdo" any activity), perhaps eventually resulting in low levels of the other electrolytes as well (cal, mag, sodium).

    ???

    Plus, if we cut veggies back too much, then I would think it would be extremely easy to become deficient in potassium, esp if one is taking b12/folate.

    d.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Cjb,

    I think that the experience shared by just about everybody here is that once a person tips into this state that it only very rarely restarts by itself. other wise there wouldn't be all these sick people. My balance appears to have always been kind of shakey. I got tipped a nunber of times and each time it was slower to recover until one time I didn't. Then it becomes a chicken and egg cycle. For intance you need methyfolate and mb12 to make cells. When the cells don't get made the stomach lining deteriorates. As the lining deteriorates it makes less acid and absorbs less b12 which is needed to make cells. Without the cells it deteriorates making less acid and absorbtion of many nutrients goes into a downwards spiral, the very nutrients needed for a healthy digestive system to absorb the items needed to make cells are not absorbed and the situation gets worse and worse.
     
  9. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd and everyone;
    I too am floored by this situation...why must we live in such a strictly measured way? Sometimes I tell myself that I should be glad that I have defied natural selection, because I would be "most sincerely dead" without my efforts to balance these deficits. Part of this truth is that my one brother and my one sister experienced an unexplained sudden death...And The only way I can explain my survival is that I've had to be rather obsessive with diet, supplements, and where I invest my limited energy. I really hope to find some clues and to share them here.
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Cruz,

    I literally could not have survived earlier in human history than I was born. I am alive today only because of penicillin. Before that I would have been one of the 25% of infant mortality before the age of 5. I suspect that there may be many of us with that kind of history here. Whatever you read here of me, remember, I am the healthiest today of my entire life. Yes, I tip off the pinncle of balance, but by paying attention I'm not crashing.

    Every one of my biological or adoptive grandparents made it into their late 80s and 90s except for ALS in one case and self induced lung cancer in two cases. These were "sturdy stock" as they would have said. I look at my generation. About half are just healthy and the other half would have died much earlier without antibiotics or c-sections or whatever. Selective breeding changes things faster than you might think. The best predictor of needing assisted reproductive technology is if your parents needed it. I needed antibiotics to survive infancy and childhood. All three of my children needed the same. All three of them need mb12,adb12 and Metafolin. I've been in the group health business since 1982. I asked right then about this very question. Can we expect people who would have died as infants to have less healthy children. In my family it was exactly that. My maternal grandfather (biological) had MS and needed b12 shots in the 1950s and with that lived to 88. My biological mother had colon cancer and is alive at 82. I need b12, have Subacute Combined Degeneration controled and in remission with active b12 protcol (some technical differences from MS) and in a colonoscopy last year had a polyp removed. None of them had the immune weakness I had most of my life.

    I started vitamins thanks to my M-I-L in my early 20s cutting short a whole lot of drug resistant streps and pneumonias and drug resistant UTIs. She saved my life. I wouldn't have made it to 9 years ago to start mb12 without the vitamin C. It stopped the pneumonias every few years. She is 90 now. All her contemporary friends who called her a "health food nut" are dead. She was very careful what she ate and took her vitamins every day since the early 50s.
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dan,

    I read somewhere that too much potassium can lower b12 (or maybe I dreamt that?!)

    I haven't seen that. But like so many things it might have to do with the acid environment in the stomach and making it more alkaline with potassium might di that. I take currently 4000mg ov C with each meal that does aid absorbtion of minerals via it's acidic effect. Taking sublinguals and injections bypasses the stomach for b12 in any case.

    if we cut veggies back too much, then I would think it would be extremely easy to become deficient in potassium,

    That is the hell of paradoxical folate deficiency. It sure isn't a survival outcome if your tribe weren't heavy meat-eaters. The other is that I like veggies and enjoy eating them. I get tired of meat much more quickly. Sure I enjoy a nice steak, with onions, and potatoes, and salad, and chard and spinich and green beans and asparagas and artichokes and squash and fruit and all sorts of veggies. Meat is only a small part of a meal. I make a great turkey and make a vegetable broth as a base of the gravy. I was a vegetarian for years and it almost killed me.
     
  12. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, CJB.

    According to the hypothesis that I've proposed for the pathogenesis and pathophysiology of ME/CFS (the Glutathione Depletion--Methylation Cycle Block hypothesis), in this disorder, it happens like this:

    1. A person has inherited polymorphisms in a certain collection of genes that make them predisposed to developing a vicious circle mechanism if exposed to appropriate stressors. These polymorphisms have not yet been completely identified.

    2. Some combination of a variety of stressors (physical, chemical, biological and/or psychological/emotional) place demands on glutathione via oxidative stress, conjugation, or inhibition of its synthesis. Different combinations of these stressors were responsible in different cases of ME/CFS.

    3. Glutathione becomes depleted, and oxidative stress rises further, including the rise of peroxynitrite.

    4. A functional deficiency of vitamin B12 develops because of the glutathione depletion.

    5. A partial block of methionine synthase in the methylation cycle develops because of the functional B12 deficiency. That's where the methylation cycle partial block comes in.

    6. Folates become depleted as a result of the partial block of methionine synthase, via the "methyl trap" mechanism, coupled with reactions with peroxynitrite, which break down 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate.

    7. Sulfur metabolites drain into the transsulfuration pathway, then into sulfoxidation, and then are excreted, depleting the sulfur metabolism of metabolites, including cysteine.

    8. Lack of sufficient cysteine inhibits synthesis of glutathione, and that completes the vicious circle and makes ME/CFS chronic.

    Everything else in ME/CFS stems from the elements of this vicious circle. Over time, additional toxins and pathogens accumulate because this vicious circle causes dysfunction of both the detoxication system and the immune system. These toxins and pathogens cause additional problems, and that's why ME/CFS often becomes worse over time.

    Please note that this hypothesis applies to ME/CFS. There are also other B12-related disorders that can produce a block in the methylation cycle. ME/CFS is defined as an acquired disorder, i.e. it is not something that a person would have had for their entire life. If the disorder is lifelong, genetic mutations may be responsible.


    Best regards,

    Rich
     
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  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    I just want to say that both genetic based disorders and aquired CFS disorders can occur in the same person with some distinguisable features. They are not mutually exclusive. Once the cycle starts breaking down the differences appear to disappear. Looking at my lifelong history, the pre-existing characteristics are obvious as are two different sets, maybe 3, of sudden onset occur. And once they all get going in the same galloping severe cycle they have all the same symptoms and same results.

    A question Rich, how does the paradoxical folate deficiency of veggie food folate (folinic acid) play into the triggering of all this? Does it distinguish one variety or a set of variations or ??? As we see a number of people here appear to have said paradoxical folate deficiency. Coming form the group health backround I fear that some insurers may decide to treat those with genetic predispositions towards this by saying "no coverage for you since it is a pre-existing condition". I don't think that using the genetic variations as a reason to deny treatment and coverage would be to good thing at all.
     
  14. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    Hi Rich and Freddd,

    Thank you again for your work.

    For females, would heavy blood loss - at childbirth, or heavy periods at puberty, for example (anemia, low folate, low B12) be one of the many possible stressors? More females get hit with CFS/FM. Certainly a few anemic months could knock someone down if that person were not prepared ahead of time.

    Always thinking........
    How much food folate can I eat?
    What were my own stressors?

    ____________________________

    What we are TOLD is a healthy diet may not be for many of us here.
     
  15. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    I've often wondered whether people with ME have genetic immune system problems which in the absence of abx treatment would have led to death. Perhaps that explains why so many have this condition now - previous generations would have died from infections before getting ME.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rosebud,

    From early research done with concentrated liver extract and not able to be replicated with cyanocbl, post partum depression and possibley post partum psychosis appear to be caused by this deficiency. The research then indicated that post partum depression could be cured in 3 days with the liver extract, that is active b12 and folate. It wasn't duplicated with cyancbl though the attempt was made. The stress of pregnancy appears to be enough to set it off.
     
  17. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    @ Freddd - That would have been me a few times over!!

    Maybe the exercise (electrolytes?) PLUS the squash folates were just enough to start a slight tailspin.

    I have caught a couple of tailspins that happened I think because I didn't take the next dose soon enough.

    Now I have a meal coming up this weekend that may have folic acid in it - Any tips? Call up and ask for gluten free? Eat up on my boiled egg supper before hand?

    One med. I am considering is Vasoactive Intestinal Polypedtide. It can help with gut healing among other things.
     
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rosebud,

    Gluten is only a problem for a relatively few people, like dairy. I wouldn't avoid either as a routine without a good reason..
     
  19. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    @ Freddd,

    My salivary IGA AGA was borderline, and my Alcat allergies showed I should avoid, so avoiding gluten helps me also avoid allergy stuff and folic acid - trying to a 2 for 1 out of it!
     
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    SO you have reason to do so. SO avoid it and hope it helps.
     

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