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Exercise a major cause of CFS symptoms for me

Discussion in 'Post-Exertional Malaise, Fatigue, and Crashes' started by sregan, Oct 8, 2013.

  1. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    During my 10 years with CFS I have been able to weight lift during this time. Anaerobic exercise is high intensity for short duration. It's easy to determine when you have done enough and not overdo it. Physically I appear to be in very good shape and look like someone who regularly visits the gym. Recently I have had to travel and had a week away from the gym and seen that my symptoms have improved substantially.

    I was noticing recently that my brain fog seemed to be tied to lunch or the workout just prior perhaps. I know now it's my exercising. I'm not sure what is happening, I think it might be tied to gut bugs. I also get increased anxiety and moody which disappeared when I stopped those 2 separate weeks. I suspect most brain fog or mental issues associated with CFS are probably due to the gut.

    Any ideas?
     
  2. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    Valentijn likes this.
  3. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    justy I just tried that link and got "There is currently no text in this page". Also searched for it with no results :(
     
  4. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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  5. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I believe that in many cases the key (and connection between activity and gut) is acidosis. Anaerobic exercise - and all exertion quickly becomes anaerobic with ME - produces lactic acid. So do carbohydrates in the gut. The muscle lactic acid/lactate will raise levels of lactate in the bloodstream and, I would guess, lead to generally lower pH throughout the body including the gut. So there could be a complex vicious cycle, with the acidity in the gut likely to lead to increased permeability of the gut wall (leaky gut) and this could consequently perpetuate an autoimmune process which is the basis of ME.

    I don't know if you have checked out the section on leaky gut and d-lactic acidosis; if not, I would recommend it.
     
  6. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    I have the original paper on my pc as a pdf file - but it's too big to upload here..
     
  7. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Which one?
     
  8. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    So sorry - my own text got mixed up with the link - thanks SickOfSickness for fixing it.
     
  9. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    I think peggy sue may be referring to the Myhill et al paper showing mitochondrial dysfunction. The Dr Myhill wiki page above has links to all 3 of the published research papers.
     
  10. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    Yes, it was the Myhill (second) paper.

    I just assumed the psych-lobby had been at wiki again!

    jumping to wrong conclusions about them, oh dear....:rolleyes:
     
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  11. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    @ MeSci, thank you...

    This could be, along with the Brian Fog seems to always be associated with a decrease in quality of my movements (sorry). I could wonder if the exercise is causing something to dump into the bowel, via the liver/bile, that is very disruptive. If the liver is possibly removing lactate that could be it. I have some ph strips. Maybe I can test that? :thumbdown:

    I do know that at times when I've consumed charcoal I can have a window where I feel good enough (usually the net day within 24 hours) to believe that all my feeling bad is due to the gut.
     
  12. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    justy, @SickOfSickness

    Got it, thank you. A lot to study there for sure!!
     
  13. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    I have been weightlifting consistently over the last several years. However I normally don't experience brain fog after. This may be though because I do it late at night (around 10pm) when I am feeling my best and consume carbs during and after.

    The brain fog after meals I believe occurred for me after eating carbs that subsequently fed candida which pumped out CO2. This happened to me ever day after lunch. My theory is digestion is always worse earlier on in the day for me in the evening this phenomenon wasn't nearly as bad.

    Another theory I have is that working out will deplete muscle and liver glycogen. I normally can't work out very long, hour tops, before my muscle & liver glycogen is seemingly depleted. The brain runs primarily off glucose, and if you are using it for other means (working out) it will impair brain functioning, which usually means feeling light-headed. In athletic terms this is technically called "hitting the wall".

    Do you pump iron fasted? And then eat a meal?

    There are formulas to roughly figure out glycogen depletion and what your aprrox time limit is. There may be other factors to consider as well what your glycogen reserves are like. (genetic, metabolic, types of sugars consumed, timing, etc.)

    My theory is that in my case candida possibly gobble up blood glucose meaning I hit the fatigue point earlier in athletic terms. Once I started eliminating candida I found my "pumping iron" endurance increased.
     
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  14. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I like 'Brian Fog' - I think I will use that to personalise it next time I get it, and say "%$£"&^" off, Brian!" :D

    Yes, I have noticed correlations between bowel movements and energy, both mental and physical, especially when things are loose. I kept a record for a short time to see how I felt before and after bowel movements. Sometimes there was no difference, sometimes I felt significantly more alert and strong afterwards, and sometimes less alert and strong afterwards.

    My current theory is that the pH of the lower gut has a direct effect on energy, and each time you shift stuff along, the pH of the crucial section changes.

    pH strips might provide some interesting data.

    The liver does do most of the lactate disposal, and presumably can get overloaded. I get dull pains in my upper-right abdomen at times, which I am guessing is the liver struggling with lactate.
     
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  15. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I usually have breakfast then workout at lunchtime and then actually eat lunch right after.
     
  16. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    LOL!


    A lot of times I will be a TON better after a movement. The less healthy the movement appears the better I usually feel.

    I've tried the ph strips, first attempt the test pad went very dark where contact was made but not enough to convince me I had a good sample. My gut has improved quite a bit since I've stopped all supplements. I was down to just taking my minerals every day (Mag, Cal, Selenium, Zn, Molybdenum and Boron). Now it seems one of those might be the culprit. I've been eating a good dose of Stonyfield yogurt in the AM and have had some "textbook" movements. They actually look normal again :love:. Funny how it NEVER occured to me that something I'm taking might have such an effect on the gut (not withstanding anti-fungal type supps).
     
  17. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    Ideally you want to have muscle & liver glycogen topped off right before workout so consume carbs before, consume an intra-workout carb drink, and then eat the largest meal of your day right after your workout. Personally my largest meal of the day is usually between 9pm and 12am, another reason why i workout at that time. Also I have been eating all day meaning reserves are topped off.

    I am not sure what you eat for breakfast, but for example weightlifting first thing in the morning fasted is the worst possible case. For cardio fat loss purposes that is another story.

    Oh an whatever you do, don't do a bunch of cardio in any proximity to a weightlifting session. That will burn through glycogen reserves super quick, and either impair your workout or recovery or both.

    For the pre & intra workout you want a fast digesting carb and protein. So dextrose, glucose and something like PeptoPro or Whey. So lentils and steak/eggs would be a bad idea for pre/intra but a good idea for post.

    Depending on the resiliency of your digestion an ideal would look like this:

    Immediate Pre-work out 40grams of carbs & 30 grams of protein

    Intra-workout 40 grams of carbs & 15 grams of protein

    Immediate Post-Workout 100+ grams of carbs & 30+ grams of protein (largest meal of the day ideally)

    This info comes from Lyle McDonald arguably one of the smartest guys when it comes to understanding athletic nutrition based science.
     
  18. 5ummer

    5ummer

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    I do regular light exercise with a physio for the past 3 years and it has overall helped to keep my healthy. I agree that is easy to feel when I have over done it and I know where my limit is. For 18 months I did this exercise 3 times a week believing it was helping me. However at the beginning of the year I started with a new therapist who gives me regular breaks. So 3 times a week, for 2 weeks, followed by a week with only one session and then back to 3 times a week. I discovered with these regular extra days I rests I started to feel better overall. Maybe you need some scheduled rests in your schedule.
     
  19. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I have to say that I am alarmed at reading about people deliberately doing strenuous exercise if they have ME.

    If my bowel movements are bad (loose, etc.) I am 99% sure that it is due to mental and/or physical overexertion, as I think I have my diet and supplements about right. The nasty bowel movements coincide with PEM. I am pretty sure that they are due to acidosis arising from exertion and/or stress.
     
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  20. 5ummer

    5ummer

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    I too think strenuous exercise is a terrible idea for people with ME. I do very very light exercise. All of it is done lying on my back and it is not meant to be tiring at all. I do things like pass a ball from hand to hand. I do 8 reps of each exercise and only do 6 exercises. This is followed by assisted stretching (which is so amazing for the cramps that come with being bedridden!).

    I totally agree with you about nasty bowel movements and PEM! I spent some many nights sitting on the toilet praying for this all to be over now. And at first doing exercise was part of that because I was doing too much. However since I have got better at my pacing (which included lowering my activity level during these exercise sessions) I haven't had any PEM symptoms for about 6 months.

    Overall I am much healthier for the exercise because I have managed to get my cholesterol under control and I am able to sit up for longer which increases my activity time with the world.
     

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