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Excitotoxicty from diet - or too much glutamate?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dsdmom, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. dsdmom

    dsdmom Senior Member

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    About 3 weeks ago I switched my diet to a whole food, plant based diet. I ate generally healthy before this but the switch includes A LOT of greens (mainly spinach), veggies, beans, etc. I was feeling decent on it but recently am not feeling well. I'm likening my symptoms to excitotoxicity - insomnia, agitation, anxiety like feelings (without being anxious). 2 weeks ago we had a new central air system installed. I then started feeling really icky (just about immediately after having it installed) and have ruled out any sort of gas as a problem (thank you, fire department and gas company), mold (inspection - waiting on air sample results but also just passed the VCS test again with flying colors) and we are having the ac removed tomorrow on the off chance there's something they installed that is bothering me.

    Today I had a couple of thoughts and would love other's input. Is it possible that by eating large levels of greens (and hence folic acid) that I could be starting up some methylation without taking the supplements to do so? And is what I'm feeling a result of this excitotoxicity?

    Or...could I be eating too many glutamate containing foods like mushrooms and tomatoes and is that what my problem is?

    Any thoughts on this?
    Thanks :)

    ETA: I am also taking B12 shots (methyl) 3.5mg(?) a few times a week.
     
  2. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    dsdmom
    Yes to the folic acid & possible sensitivity to glutamate. My hunch is that it might be also due to sulphur, which is often high in "green" foods/products. Or a combination of both situations. Methylation might be moving forward a bit, and then getting clogged by CBS issues (problems dealing with sulphur). I had +++excitotoxicity issues with "healthy" greens, and still do if I touch them.
    All the best,
     
  3. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I remember your trials and tribulations with the AC from your other thread. Oy vey!:aghhh:

    Yes, if you're getting your greens you're probably getting some folate (not synthetic folic acid, but the real deal the way it's supposed to be in nature).

    That's quite a large amount of B12. B12 and folate are like baking soda and vinegar. You need both to make a methylation reaction happen. So this could explain why the B12 was tolerated and the folate seemingly isn't.

    One other thought is that spinach is high in oxalates, and maybe you're reacting to that. I think ACAT is the SNP for that. People with ACAT don't process oxalates well.

    The glutamate problem would be more likely from artificial additives, not natural sources like veggies. Are you using anything like soy sauce or fish sauce? Although it would be easy enough to trial stopping the glutamate containing veggies and see if that helps.
     
    Star-Anise likes this.
  4. dsdmom

    dsdmom Senior Member

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    Star-Anise
    Thanks for the reply, interesting point about sulphur.But isn't the idea with methylation that things are going to feel worse as glutathione drops before it turns around? if that's the case, shouldn't I push through and get it moving along? I was fine with healthy greens until I started using them a lot. Again, I don't even know if this is my issue, just trying to explore some ideas :)
     
  5. dsdmom

    dsdmom Senior Member

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    caledonia
    Yes, still in the throes of my trials & tribulations :)
    I just checked my 23andme results and am -/- on ACT snp so if that's the one for oxalates maybe I'm ok for that?

    Have used soy sauce this past week - but it's not like I'm drinking the stuff. Although I actually switched to braggs aminos - could easily have glutamate in that too.
     
  6. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Yes, I think Bragg's aminos are as bad as soy sauce. I had to stop using all that stuff, even fish sauce, which used to be safe. You can try stopping all sauces and seasonings and see if that helps.

    Are you CBS+ and/or BHMT+? That might suggest a sulfur problem like star-anise is saying.

    Or maybe you just need to back way off on the B12.
     
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  7. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    dsdmom
    Hey there!
    I can only speak from my experience, and from what I have read, and experienced with a few people that I am mentoring.
    Sometimes yes. Feeling crappy sometimes means that things are moving forward with methylation, and you are excreting heavy metals and such meaning "good." But sometimes you feel bad, because you are hitting blocks. I personally have an ACAT mutation & CBS mutations, and feel that both oxalates & sulphur foods are issues for me. I'm just learning the ins and outs of "why" this is, but I feel so much better after eliminating high thiol foods.
    I have found my 23andme results to be so very useful in helping to determine "good-feeling crappy" and "bad-feeling crappy," but I think some people on this forum have not found their results to be as direct of a road map per se.
    Re: Braggs Aminos...
    what I know is that it is made from soy, which is on the high thiol list.
    Caledonia makes a great point that I think makes a lot of sense:
    And what I know for sure is that once I started taking even the precursors to methylation like Zinc or magnesium, or the B-complex liquid from Genestra that my naturopath gave me (mix of folates and B12) things started to move forward with methylation and my sensitivity to seemingly all foods increased until I addressed the CBS issues I have. I'm not suggesting that you necessarily have CBS issues, just that it seems that increased sensitivities to things like aminos, or salicylates can occur when the methylation system is trying to move forward and there are blockages.
    Or commonly if there is an underlying inflammation process we can see all kinds of histamine like reactions.... there have been some posts of late re: increased histamine reactions with methylation for example (which would be adrenaline based feeling - agitated, flushing.. i.e.).
    Hope that helps a bit...
     
  8. dsdmom

    dsdmom Senior Member

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    I am CBS699T +/-
    BHMT02 +/-
    BHMT 04 +/-

    What would I do to address the sulfur problem?
    And what would backing off the b12 do? Slow down any methylation that might be starting up? I was under the impression that people (Like Fredddd) take way more than that on a daily basis.

    Star-Anise what are you doing to address your CBS and ACAT snps?
     
  9. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    dsdmom, Here's some info re glutamate:GABA balance and excitotoxity from Heartfixer, which is a short version of Amy Yasko's info. I've been taking GABA for years, before understanding this balancing role. Calms the CNS. Best to you, ahmo

    Excitotoxicity – The CBS up regulation leads to excess production of alpha-ketoglutarate, which is converted in to glutamate, a stimulatory neurotransmitter. Under normal circumstances, glutamate will be converted in to GABA, a calming neurotransmitter, but the enzyme systems that convert glutamate in to GABA are compromised by lead and mercury, the clearance of which seems to be compromised in individuals with methyl cycle defects (here is a situation where dysfunction of a genetically abnormal enzyme leads to acquired dysfunction of a genetically normal enzyme system). The result is “excitotoxicity”, stimulatory behavior in autistic kids (“stims”) and anxiety and sleeplessness in adults. We approach this problem by limiting alpha-ketoglutarate and glutamate rich foods from your diet (more on Excitotoxicity to follow; diet tips in appendix) and by supplementing you with GABA, aiming to restore GABA:Glutamate balance. GABA is initiated at 500 mg once or twice a day, advancing the dose as you see fit by your response.
    http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm#Glutamate – GABA Imbalance Þ Excitotoxicity

    Yasko free ebook: http://www.holisticheal.com/autism-pathways-to-recovery-book-and-workbook.html
     
  10. jasrich

    jasrich

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    You should see this site - http://lowoxalate.info/ and check out this group - http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Trying_Low_Oxalates/ . Many of us are rejects from doing exactly what you are doing - going hard core with dark leafy greens, nuts, seeds and other high oxalate foods. That's not to say that oxalate is your issue, but I'm ACAT -/- and I make calcium oxalate kidney stones which is a more definitive marker than a SNP.
     
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  11. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    dsdmom - are you saying you're going vegetarian now? Because glycolysis and/or gluconeogenisis might be somewhat dysfunctional in ME patients, which might cause an increased need for protein to help compensate for problems with generating ATP from carbs and fats.
     
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  12. dsdmom

    dsdmom Senior Member

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    Mostly vegan. I've already been gluten free/dairy free for years. I have no problem adding small amounts of animal protein in per week but there's no easy answer on this. You have a point and yet there are others who believe that animal protein should be avoided for various reasons, one of which is sulfites.
     
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  13. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Heartfixer has a CBS protocol which I have used successfully. For the diet part though, I used the Free Thiol list, which is much less restrictive. I was able to keep eating meat the whole time and it still worked. The links are in my signature.

    The goal is to reduce ammonia and sulfur your diet and also take supps to lower them because of the CBS drain problem. This will cause you to not tolerate methyl supps until you get this pathway clear. BHMT can add to a CBS problem. There are a couple of tests you can do to verify if there is a CBS problem. Most people just do the urine sulfate strips because it's cheaper.

    I have similar SNPs to you and couldn't tolerate even 1 mcg of B12. Now I can do much larger amounts (about 55mcg). I'm keeping it limited due to metal detox (a good thing). Once the metals are out in several months, I should be able to go up to my goal which is 1000mcg.

    You're taking 3500mcg. That's a very large dose. It doesn't matter what Freddd or somebody else is taking. Methylation is individualized, so what matters is what you should be taking and what you can tolerate.

    Yes, the idea behind lowering the B12 is to slow down on methylation.

    Like I suggested before, muscle testing can be very helpful for honing in on what "your" dose is, along with trial and error and taking good notes in a symptom journal. Starting one thing at a time, so you know what is doing what. Starting with much smaller than normal amounts and gradually working your way up to a normal amount. Stopping if there are adverse effects which are too much to tolerate and reducing the dose. These are all smart practices which will the reduce the chances you will get into trouble.
     
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  14. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    dsdmom
    Hi there:) Sorry for late reply.
    The CBS C699T mutation is considered to be the more severe of the two mutations that Yasko speaks of. I have both of them, as well I have both of the BHMT mutations +/- just like you.
    I have documented my success with Yasko's ammonia/sulphur protocol here:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/cbs-success.23257/
    feel free to ask me any questions should you have any about what worked :)
    If you are up to doing some reading, it would be useful to take a gander at Yasko's work. That's the main source of guidance along with the lovely support network on this site that has helped me turn everything around in the last 6 months. I had been having slow improvements over many years doing all kinds of natural health interventions, but nothing turned things around so fast and successfully for me as to when I did the CBS protocol.
    Yasko lists the CBS mutation as a priority mutation, meaning that ideally you should address it first before you really try to start up methylation. I didn't start b-12/folic acid supports until I had done her protocol for awhile & was feeling significantly better.
    In my opinion, it may not be necessary to entirely stop you B12 support if you feel it has been benefiting you. But a key thing to avoid is overtaxing and overdriving you system in a way that leads to this agitation and over-excited feeling. For me, this happens anyways, and from what I have read it's just bumps in the methylation road, but they key for me is to pull back. Too much of this excito-toxicity for me can be hard on my already weakened adrenals, and I don't want to cause them to crash. As well, as another earlier poster suggested re: Glutamate/GABA balance, I'm quite vulnerable to having too much Glutamate, and I don't want to over fire those receptors. There is much on this site re: excitotoxicity that I have learned. Recently I have been benefiting from posts on this thread:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/poll-freddds-b-12-treatment-plan.3566/#post-369952
    Although the supplements are a bit different the process is the same.
    However, if there are CBS issues, then in my experience, it is important to deal with them first, as the supplements may not be directed the way that you intend them to be as described below:



    re: ACAT: I can post what I have gathered from Yasko's book regarding this:





    I have known for some time that I have a vulnerable Krebs cycle as early on in my recovery whenever I ate anything with the slightest hint of citric acid as a preservative, vinegar products, or any citrus fruits I would crash for days. This was just so very validating when I saw this information. I have been experimenting for some time with using Magnesium Citrate to help support what I suspect is very low magnesium levels and also support the Kreb's cycle as is in citrate form. I try to take my minerals and everything that I can in the citrate form. I noticed a HUGE difference in energy when I introduced the Mag Citrate. It was funny, because all over it is prescribed as an insomnia support but I would be awake all night with wired/tired energy. That's when I knew I was on to something. Magenesium from my understanding also works as a general precursor to methylation too.
    I have recently tried Vitamin K with excellent results. It seems to have stabilized the energy cycle somewhat. I have ordered lactoferrin and it is my next to try.
    I have been experimenting with Vitamin E succinate, and have had mixed results. Yasko suggests that this supplement aids in aluminum detoxifcation and I wonder if this is why I kind of feel yucky after on the day of, but the next day feel really good. Anyhow, experimenting away!
    Yasko's book is available for free download:
    www.dramyyasko.com/wp.../files.../1327512160_9_1_1_8_pdf_02_file.pdf

    Hope that helps!
     
  15. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    I suppose this is technically true, since C699T is the only Yasko CBS that has any impact on the CBS gene. But calling it the "most severe" seems a little misleading when the effects of it are actually quite mild.

    And being heterozygous means the effects are likely to be quite minimal, if there's any effect at all. The heterozygous version is also extremely common.
     
  16. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Valentijn
    Hey there! From my perspective snps speak to potential, and it depends on whether it has been expressed. From my experience I only have heterozygous CBS C699T, CBS A360A, and heterozygous BHMT-02, BHMT-04 and had HUGE issues with sulphur and ammonia. When I followed Yasko's protocol it was a major game changer & started an amazing journey for me, whereby, I have had my health almost completely restored now that I have been addressing MTHFR C677T, MTRR K350A, MTRR A664A. As a result of completing the CBS protocol and continuing to maintain it, I was able to wean myself of 1000s of mg of Tyrosine, Tryptophan and hundreds of 5HTP that I was on a daily basis. My theory is that I now have more BH4 like Yasko suggests will happen.

    Do you have any CBS or BHMT genes yourself? I don't see that you have them in your signature.
    I do believe that many people likely have CBS heterozygous genes that may not be expressed. In these cases, some people can only really know once they start working on their other mutations and sulphur may become more of an issue then, or perhaps the CBS mutation is not expressed & they truly have no issues with sulphur.

    It is awesome to hear the other side of the story, there seems to be a lot of people and literature questioning the actual real impact of a CBS mutation, but I'm wary of discouraging people to give the CBS protocol a try, given my amazing response to it, and what I have seen on this forum with other people's success with it.

    Just my two-bits, and please take no offense if it come across strongly, I'm smiling & really friendly actually :)
     
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  17. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Probably. But since they're mostly meaningless, I'm not sure why I'd bother to put them in my signature :p
     

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