Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/the-brain-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs/choline-on-the-brain-a-guide-to-choline-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005
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Every single symptom of "adrenal fatigue" matches caffiene withdraw

Discussion in 'Adrenal Dysfunction' started by drob31, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    The thing about caffiene withdraw, however, is that most people think it should only last a few days. I'm seeing many anecdotal reports saying it can lasts 6 months or more.

    Futhermore, if you have a caffeine "sensitivity," they could last up to a year.

    However, I don't think caffiene withdraw explains "adrenal fatigue" by itself, I think that having caffiene withdraw adrenal fatigue prevents the HPA-axis from being able to recalibrate itself. So the withdraw has to be dealt with first, and could take a longer time than suspected.

    1. Headache
      A caffeine headache usually starts behind the eyes and then moves up the front of the head.
    2. Sleepiness
      This just isn’t your normal tiredness, this is sitting up straight but still can’t keep your eyes open tiredness.
    3. Irritability
      Everyone and everything gets on your last nerve. It’s best just to lock yourself in your room during this stage.
    4. Lethargy
      Forget about productivity at this stage because you’ll be unmotivated to do anything from the feeling of the lack of energy.
    5. Constipation
      Caffeine stimulates the bowel, so without its daily dose the colon gets a little cranky too.
    6. Depression
      Caffeine withdrawal can take away all hope for living. Temporary blues are one thing, but if you already struggle with depression this could be a big issue.
    7. Muscle Pain, Stiffness, Cramping
      If you normally have some caffeine prior to exercise then during caffeine withdrawal you could feel as though your muscles have weights strapped to them.
    8. Lack of Concentration
      Forget school, studying, brain surgery, or jet engine repair during this stage of withdrawal.
    9. Flu-like symptoms
      Stuffy nose, blocked sinuses, and sinus pressure have all been reported by people withdrawing from caffeine.
    10. Insomnia
      Some people actually can’t sleep when going through caffeine withdrawal.
    11. Nausea and Vomiting
      Some people can’t even think about food the first couple days of withdrawal which compounds the feeling of lethargy.
    12. Anxiety
      In some people, caffeine actually causes anxiety, but in others, withdrawing from the drug can cause feelings on anxiety and even panic attacks have been reported by some.
    13. Brain Fog
      Withdrawal can cause some people to experience brain fog which is described as the difficulty of having coherent thoughts, difficulty thinking, and the difficulty of doing common tasks.
    14. Dizziness
      Caffeine withdrawal can cause some people to lose their sense of equilibrium.
    15. Heart Rhythm Abnormalities
      Since caffeine also stimulates the heart muscle, some people experience changes in their heart rhythm during withdrawal. Both low blood pressure and even palpitations have been reported.
     
  2. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Senior Member

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    I used to drink a lot of coffee every day; somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20 cups per day. As a result of ingesting that much caffeine I started getting anxiety and panic attacks. It took two years before the connection was made between my symptoms and the caffeine. I quit drinking coffee cold turkey and I went through hell. I had the worst headache of my life, the anxiety was unbearable, my one eye felt like someone had stuck an ice pick through it. However, it only lasted for three days. By day five I felt great and no more anxiety or panic attacks.

    If someone is reporting six to twelve months for withdrawal, I would have to think that there was something else going on. Even drug addicts and alcoholics who go through withdrawal are usually much better within one to two weeks.
     
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  3. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I still think this could affect everyone differently. Let's say you're HPA-axis is already dysregulated. Then a withdraw could last significantly longer.
     
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  4. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Senior Member

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    I agree that everyone will respond differently; I just think that six months to a year seems unlikely to completely clear caffeine from the brain and body.
     
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  5. Murph

    Murph :)

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    At one point I wrote this about giving up coffee. it really screwed me up!
     

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  6. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Senior Member

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    I should add that after I quit drinking coffee, I gained 40 lbs in three months. And it wasn't because I was eating more food. My metabolism changed and for the first time in my life I could gain weight. Before that I was always skinny.

    Murph, I found since quitting caffeine that I can't drink anything with full strength caffeine without becoming wired and not being able to sleep. When I was drinking 20 cups a day, I could sleep like a baby. But now, just one cup of regular coffee even if it's in the morning, and I'm awake until at least 4 a.m.
     
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  7. notmyself

    notmyself Senior Member

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    withdrawal probably affects people in different way,last longer in some than others..but i honestly think caffeine withdrawal will not last nowhere near 6 months..in my case was 2-3 days...all the literature about it say 1-2 weeks max..is one of the easy ''drugs'' to quit..much easier than nicotine..but caffeine can be be extremelly harmful for people with adrenal adn hormonal issues..i felt better after i quit..
     
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  8. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    That's interesting. When I did fitness instructor training way back, the current wisdom was that there's an optimal coffee intake that can help support weight loss/maintenance. 2 cups a day. The coffee helps in two ways - by raising your metabolism a bit and also by reducing you food intake a bit (people apparently eat a bit less if a meal or snack is accompanied by coffee). But once you go over the optimum level, it was believed that compensatory mechanisms kicked in that ended up actually lowering your metabolic rate.

    The 2 cups a day was based, I think, on european style coffee shots of the kind used to make espresso, latte, etc.. American style filter coffee may be different (and it might have more caffeine than you think, if its made with the cheaper robusta beans which contain more caffeine)
     
  9. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Caffiene works by blocking adenosine receptors, adenosine promotes calmness / sleepiness. By blocking these it makes you highly alert, however to compensate, your brain creates more receptors, so when you finally quit you have many more receptors than you started with, and thus feel more more tired / sleepy than normal until they downregulate.
     
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  10. IreneF

    IreneF Senior Member

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    I love coffee, but I hardly ever drink more than 3 cups/day.
     
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  11. koco

    koco

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    Hi all. I'm looking at this thread because I have been off caffeine for two weeks and feel like shit. I have cfids, nk cell deficiency, fibromyalgia, dysautonomia, adrenal insufficiency, hypothyroid, asthma, ibs, mast cell disorder, and interstitial cystitis (Jesus, that's a long list). I was motivated to quit the caffeine habit which was about 4 12 oz cups per day because I was feeling so sick I felt I needed to reassess my baseline health apart from caffeine dependency symptoms. I had never been successful doing this before because I missed the antidepressant effect of caffeine and couldn't cope well without it. I started taking about 10mg CBD oil from hemp and cut the coffee back by 2 oz per day in 4 day increments. The CBD has helped my mood significantly and I recommend it to those with mood disorders. The gradual coffee decrease minimized physical withdrawal symptoms. Since I've been quit, I feel like someone woke me from a dead sleep in the middle of the night and I just feel like that all day. I've also had increased GI issues, pain, and trouble sleeping at night. I suspect that it takes longer to completely detox from caffeine when you have other issues, especially hormonal issues. My doctor commended me on quitting and has hopes that any treatments going forward may be more successful without caffeine. At present, we're using nutritional supplements based on data collected from genetic testing with 23&me. I am awaiting my medical marijuana card and once I have that, I will try medical grade CBD and also low levels of THC (which can be stimulating and also analgesic). Any advice you have is appreciated.
     
  12. Murph

    Murph :)

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    My advice would be to eventually get back on the coffee!

    I had a chat once with a prominent researcher (who asked me not to share his hypothesis in detail, so I won't) but he argued that caffeine encourages the body to use certain metabolic pathways, and that it could be very good for some people with me/cfs. I got the most amazing all-over body cramp when I cut my caffeine to zero, and he said that's exactly what his theory would expect.

    I now drink heaps of coffee every day and feel no regrets about it at all. I think it can help me do more exercise with less PEM.

    That said , when I quit, I did stay off coffee for several months, and really gave being caffeine-free a serious go. After two weeks I was probably still in withdrawal to some extent. So perhaps continue the experiment a little, but don't feel you have to give it up for ever!
     
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  13. koco

    koco

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    Thanks, @Murph, for the reply. I'll update how I feel in several more weeks. Should be an interesting experiment. I'm just so glad the cbd is helping my mood throughout this. It's one thing to feel like shit, but if you're in good spirits, it's not as terrible.
     
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  14. Kenshin

    Kenshin Senior Member

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    I like it when it's good to have something (that's not a f#*ing apple or a stick of celery).

    Would instant coffee have the same benefits as coffee in the researchers theory?
    What about green/white tea?
     
  15. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    IL-6 is an inflammatory cytokine associated with many autoimmune diseases.

    Caffeine/coffee raises IL-6 by 50%.
     
  16. Murph

    Murph :)

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    yes, the caffeine is the key.
     
  17. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I'm not saying caffeine isn't good in some situations, it may be good for CFS/ME, but in specifically the context of hpa-axis dysfunction, I don't think it's helpful.
     
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  18. Bjjpapi

    Bjjpapi

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    I can personally attest that withdrawal can last over four months at least (only 4 months because I had to start drinking it again). After realizing I was getting headaches (killer migraines) if I skipped coffee for two or 3 days I decided I didn’t need something like that in my life. Coffee never made me feel more awake or more alert, I could fall asleep while drinking it. Let me also include that after submitting my DNA to nutrahacker their report stated that I metabolize caffeine slow and should avoid it.

    I decided to quit cold turkey back in October. The only problem with quitting cold turkey is that I had gotten used to drinking 8-12 cups a day when at work. The headaches only lasted a few days but other symptoms remained for the next four months. I would speed on my way to work for no reason (extreme speeding, which was totally unlike me). Luckily I drove into work extremely early in the morning and drove back home pretty late at night a couple days later.

    I’m also diagnosed with adhd. I start projects and don’t finish them, I have an interest in everything, and I was always trying my best to accomplish “things”. During the four months of going cold turkey this all disappeared. I would literally sit on my couch all day (also very unlike me) and only did what was completely necessary I.e. work, eat, shower etc. I was aware something was wrong and looked up coffee withdrawal symptoms. I found a site called caffeine informer and began to read some of their articles, but more informative than there articles were the comments of people going through the same things I was experiencing.

    At four months of no caffeine I had what I think was a panic attack. I’m a paramedic and see anxiety attacks often but mine wasn’t “typical”. I tossed and turned in bed after waking up one morning, felt like something was off and couldn’t get out of bed for an hour or two. It was weird feeling all over my body, specially my in my chest and them all of a sudden it all disappeared. At that moment I decided to drink coffee the following day to see if quitting was the cause of this panic attack.

    The following day I had my first cup of coffee and it was amazing, the grass was greener, birds were chirping, everything was great compared to the past four months...all in ten minutes after the first few sips. This made me realize how strong of a drug caffeine is (at least for me) and made me want to quit again even more.

    I’ve been off caffeine again for a few weeks now and it seems to be going easier than the first time. I’ve learned a lot about caffeine since this journey began and made a lot of connections to many of the symptoms I had been having for so long.

    I used to suffer from brain fog all day every day, and on some occasions very accuse and severe brain fog. I realized that I never drank enough coffee to counteract the adenosine/adenosine receptors that my body had up-regulated in order to counteract the caffeine. I learned if im going to drink coffee i have to drink enough at once to meet my tolerance level, if not the effects of adenosine would weigh me down all day. I also learned that while drinking coffee any meal that caused high insulin response would somehow affect this caffeine adenosine balance and cause crippling brain fog. At times I felt like I was giving a strong sedative, usually about 20-40 minutes after certain meals. Btw, I’m almost sure it wasn’t a blood sugar issue, I had bought a glucometer and regularly checked my blood sugar (specially during these episodes).

    My lack of attention, poor organization, poor planning, increased brain fog etc during my days off was probably due to the fact that I would only drink coffe once in the morning, not nearly enough to meet the amounts I was drinking at work. Even when at work I would drink it throughout the day, I feel if I had known to drink enough all at once I would’ve been able to feel it’s effects more consistently and regularly.

    My interest in everything and anything seems to be connected to caffeine also. I’ve read that's one of the effects of caffeine, and that has been the experience of others as well.

    I think it also affected my memory by affecting my sleep patterns. Adenosine is unopposed during nighttime sleeping hours, this causes excessive deep sleep and little to no rem sleep. When you’re consuming too much during the day you might go through mini withdrawals every night. I used to wake up every morning drenched in sweat and always tired, as if I needed to sleep another eight.

    My heart rate is very slow all the time. I used to think it was because I ran in high school but finally realized that can’t be the reason 20 years later. My heart rate during most of my ekgs during my annual medicals for the past 15 years is usually 46-48. I believe this is due to excess adenosine/adenosine receptors. Excessive adenosine/receptors can also affect pituitary hormones and many other systems in the body, most too complicated for me to understand at the moment. I do know that my testosterone is also pretty low but I’ve been “cleared” of everything by most doctors. In my journey I saw GI specialists, allergists, multiple pcps, one endocrinologist, multiple psychiatrists and one neurologist.

    Aside from ADHD I’m also diagnosed with gout. I’m eager to find out what my Uric acid levels will be during my next physical after months of not taking allopurinol and months of no caffeine (a purine that gets broken down into Uric acid).

    I understand that maybe not all of my symptoms were caused by caffeine/adenosine but I’ve learned enough about it to know that the risks/effects are understated. It’s a huge industry, America runs on dunkin after all right? It’s so socially engrained and accepted that most don’t give it a second thought. This whole time I was telling my wife that I always felt like someone was slipping a tranquilizer into my everyday life and I initially thought it was something in food. Before quitting I remember writing in one of my journals that coffee fit the bill of the poison (to me) I had been looking for, now I’m sure it’s at the very least one of the main characters.

    Sorry for the long winded response but I’m very excited to share this information.
     
  19. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    I got AF without taking or quitting caffeine. I take Hydrocortisone for my AF.

    Since a few months I take caffeine pills or one small coffee at 10 in the morning to boost my blood pressure. I can attest that caffeine will kick the adrenals hard. I would not be able to do this without hormonal support and other measures to fortify my adrenals. Be careful.
     
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  20. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    In the brain, caffeine binds the strongest to adenosine receptor A2A. The best evidence available says there is no upregulation of this receptor with chronic caffeine consumption. There is some upregulation of the A1 receptor, on the order of 20%, but this is hardly a dramatic increase. It is important to realize that caffeine has other effects on the body besides competitively antagonizing adenosine receptors. In any case, the best available evidence is that in the general population chronic coffee consumption has a neutral to beneficial effect. This article from Healthline provides a list of some of these benefits: 13 Health Benefits of Coffee, Based on Science.

    Now, excuse me while I finish my delicious cup of coffee!
     

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