• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Esther Crawley - Special Educational Needs - 21st September 2017

Large Donner

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
Well I'm not going to produce the devil as evidence, I'm using that phrase as in common parlance. She's a sell out and that is really, she has sold out her ethics, sold out science, sold out the CMRC sold out the children she claims to be helping.

I don't buy that the only other option is that she doesn't get it or has persuaded herself so much that she is right.

She doesn't use the scientific method she lies and thats how she makes a living.

The facts are all collectable in black and white and most of them can be found on this forum.

Shes a sell out.
 
Last edited:
2

2kidswithME

Messages
63
Location
Oxfordshire, England
Luther Blissett said:
As this training event is advertised to teachers, I am wondering if contact with the local section of the National Union of Teachers (NUT) would be helpful to share our concerns? https://www.teachers.org.uk/south-west-region

Maybe a link to some of David Tuller's work and a way to contact him for further information if needed?

We had a few teachers in a recent thread, @Countrygirl , @Molly98 , @Jenny TipsforME , what do you think of an ex-teacher contacting them about concerns about member training?

If a Teacher follows bad advice that could lead to injury or damage the welfare of a child, would/could they be reported to the Local Child Protection Board? It seems like that is the last thing a teacher would need to have to deal with.
Click to expand...
Tymes Trust would be interested and might well be able to give input to the organisers.

I get very cross at EC's sloppy definition of the condition. If only mine had only missed a day per week in school.

my son was out of school completely for nearly 3 years before he began easing back in with one lesson per week (he had other provision for core subjects at home). my daughter, who was milder overall, struggled to manage 2 lessons a day in year 11, dipping to half that by the end of the year (also had other provision for core subjects). That she did well on her GCSEs was something of a miracle, helped by maximum concessions.
 
Large Donner

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
Esther12 said:
I think that she's a quack, and that I can support that claim with the available evidence, but I don't have good evidence that she lies. Having seen how having people take criticism too far has been used against us over the years I just try to be a bit cautious.
Click to expand...

She tells unsuspecting audiences of influential academics she is being harassed when she is not, and uses factual blogs like Tullers which question her science as proof of the harassment claims without showing her audience the true challenge to her claims.

I think you may be using the word quack without offering your understanding of the definition of the word. Personlly I think it would be well accepted within the definition of the word quack that lieing is one of the attributes.

I think shes a quack......Having seen how having people take criticism too far has been used against us over the years I just try to be a bit cautious.
Click to expand...

Does it make any difference in terms of "taking criticism too far," that you call her a quack and I say she is a liar.

Her only possible defense against herself being called a quack (if the definition being used is someone who gets things wrong but just doesn't understand that they do) is that she, herself, is a liar.

She is a liar.
 
Last edited:
Esther12

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
Large Donner said:
I think you may be using the word quack without offering your understanding of the definition of the word. Personlly I think it would be well accepted within the definition of the word quack that lieing is one of the attributes.
Click to expand...

One can be a quack due to incompetence and stupidity as well as due to a deliberate desire to deceive. I really don't know what's going on in Crawley's head.

It could be that it is unhelpful for me to talk about people like Crawley as quacks, and it is hard to know. Those who are more cautious than I in the criticisms they make often end up being more persuasive to outsiders tbh. I'm confident that I can justify that claim if anyone was to challenge me though.
 
Large Donner

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
Esther12 said:
One can be a quack due to incompetence and stupidity as well as due to a deliberate desire to deceive. I really don't know what's going on in Crawley's head.

It could be that it is unhelpful for me to talk about people like Crawley as quacks, and it is hard to know. Those who are more cautious than I in the criticisms they make often end up being more persuasive to outsiders tbh. I'm confident that I can justify that claim if anyone was to challenge me though.
Click to expand...

I get where you are coming from. But when a politician says obvious falsehoods we dont call them quacks when it is obvious that they couldn't possibly have just not know the truth. We don't do this in police cover ups either.

We call them liars.
 
Esther12

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
Large Donner said:
I get where you are coming from. But when a politician says obvious falsehoods we dont call them quacks when it it obvious that they couldn't possibly have just not know the truth. We call them liars.
Click to expand...

Even in coverage of politics, there has been some debate over when Trump's falshoods should be described as lies or not. In science/medicine there is far more of a taboo over aserting that someone else has being deliberately dishonest without having good evidence that this is the case - I think that this is a part of a worrying culture that tries to assume the best of researchers/medics/etc, and can encourage people to play down the likelihood of deliberate dishonesty occuring. I'd like to try to change that culture, but I also see that on this specific point there is reason for concern that we often cannot know when people are lying, and that accusations of deliberate dishonesty often end up serving more as just insults than matters to be seriously debated.

From the discussions and debates I've seen, I think that a degree of caution is normally useful for our side, and a lack of caution can be used against us by those who want to avoid discussing the legitimate concerns that we have. That's just my view though, based on what I've seen.
 
Large Donner

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
Esther12 said:
In science/medicine there is far more of a taboo over aserting that someone else has being deliberately dishonest without having good evidence that this is the case
Click to expand...

Yes very poignant and I can see bits of where you are coming from, but in the real world we all know such people are just a bunch of liars. Its not up to the common person to be afraid to call a spade is a spade otherwise we fall into this trap..

I think that this is a part of a worrying culture that tries to assume the best of researchers/medics/etc, and can encourage people to play down the likelihood of deliberate dishonesty occuring.
Click to expand...

..... just like people have been afraid to speak out against abuse by priests for example or others in positions of influence with authority. We simply cant have people who set themselves up as the ruling classes and those whom object get sent to the tower.
 
Last edited:
Esther12

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
Large Donner said:
Yes very poignant and I can see bits of where you are coming from, but in the real world we all know such people are just a bunch of liars. Its not up to the common person to be afraid to call a spade is a spade otherwise we fall into this trap..

...otherwise we fall right in to their trap just like people have been afraid to speak out against abuse by priests for example or others in positions of influence with authority. We simply cant have people who set themselves up as the ruling classes and those whom object get sent to the tower.
Click to expand...

Right, I think it's important to speak out about abuses of power, but also to try to do so in the most effective of ways. I do think there there are things, particularly in UK and medical culture, that can make that hard to do. Also, I think that a lot of patiets can understimate how genuinely incompetent some of the people in medical research are, and how unused to any sort of debate or criticism from outsiders they are. I think that many of them genuinely see legitimate criticism as 'abuse', and that this isn't (for all of them) just some self-serving game they're playing. A lot of these people are more pathetic than choosing to be 'evil'. That's not to say that the harm they do is any less real, or that there is any less of a need to fight against them.

I really don't know what's going on with Crawley. She seems brighter than some of them, but I don't know if she does really understand the problems with her own work, or why so many patients are opposed to what she has done.
 
slysaint

slysaint

Senior Member
Messages
2,125
slysaint said:
day two:
10:10
MRC-funded researchers: updates on MRC-funded research
Prof Carmine Pariante;
Prof Esther Crawley; Prof Anne McArdle; Dr Mark Edwards; Sue Wilson
Click to expand...

According to AfME
" Livestreaming of talks on day two will take place, where possible".
We shall see...............:rolleyes:

eta: this is about the CMRC conference Not this SEN talk.
 
Countrygirl

Countrygirl

Senior Member
Messages
5,474
Location
UK
slysaint said:
Putting this here as don't know where else to post it.
It was a program in 2007 (just after the new NICE guidelines).
"ME
Case Notes
Many teenagers have ME, also known as chronic fatigue syndrome. Mark Porter joins Dr Esther Crawley at her clinic in Bath for this age group."

I think Crawley was on speed for this program............:wide-eyed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00852zx
Click to expand...

I think she was on more than speed @slysaint...........or I am.

At 1.30 she says the patients like to call it 'Marmaduke Encephalitis'.o_O:jaw-drop:

or was it 'Marmanduke'

Have I a problem I am not aware of............? or did she really say we call this Marmaduke/Marmanduke?? I have replayed it several times.

We also don't, of course, call it Encephalitis.

Off to listen again.

Can't believe it.

Perhaps auditory hallucinations are causing me problems today. :wide-eyed:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.