Equilibrant vs. Oxymatrine

[Hip]

Dizziness and Oxymatrine

Has anyone tried both the White Tiger oxymatrine having 200 mg oxymatrine per tablet (available here: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5), and the Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine having 300 mg oxymatrine per capsule (available here: 1, 2, 3, 4)?

I find that just one 200 mg White Tiger oxymatrine tablet makes me feel dizzy (a common side effect of oxymatrine), whereas even if I take two 300 mg capsules of Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine, I don't feel the slightest hint of dizziness.

This does not make sense. The only explanation I have is that it could be some other compounds in the White Tiger oxymatrine tablets that is causing the dizziness.

The Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine comes in capsules, inside of which there is just a pure white powder which must be pure oxymatrine. This looks like a more refined product than the White Tiger.

Whereas the White Tiger oxymatrine tablets contain an extract of Sophora flavescens root (where oxymatrine comes from); the tablets are a dark brown color, looking like they contain lots of the plant root material as well as the oxymatrine.

So possibly it is not oxymatrine that makes you dizzy, but some other ingredient in the Sophora flavescens herb.

Either that, or the Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine capsules are duff, and don't contain any oxymatrine, hence the lack of dizziness. I wouldn't think so though.

 

[halcyon]

Either that, or the Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine capsules are duff, and don't contain any oxymatrine, hence the lack of dizziness. I wouldn't think so though.

That's what I might suspect. Do you notice any effects from that brand at all? I've never taken oxymatrine alone, just what is in Equilibrant, but even slight increases of dose cause noticeable effects for me such as fever, headache, myalgia, general malaise, etc.

Was dizziness one of your prodromal symptoms before ME onset?

 

[jstefl]

I have a long history with Oxymatrine. I started with the White Tiger back in 2008 before Equilibrant was available. I took it until Equilibrant became available, and then switched. I took 20 packages of Equilibrant before I gave up due to lack of results, and the expense.

Two years ago, I started on resistant starch, and noticed some moderate improvements. A year later, I tried Equilibrant again, and this time noticed that it was making a difference. I noticed an improvement in mental clarity, reduction in the severity of my headaches, and some additional energy. I am able to get through a day without a nap. I still have problems if I try to go two days in a row without a nap, but my naps are shorter in duration, and some days, just turn into a rest period without my falling asleep. Two years ago, that would not have been possible for me.

I recently ran out of Equilibrant, and noticed a reversal of my improvements. I was very glad when my new order was delivered.

I feel that it is the combination of resistant starches and Equilibrant that made the difference for me. I have tested positive for enteroviruses by Dr. Chia and ARUP labs.

John

 

[Hip]

That's what I might suspect. Do you notice any effects from that brand at all?

For around one month, I took 600 mg of Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine, plus 1500 mg of inosine (along with some STAT-3 inhibitors, like 300 mg of andrographolide, to boost the IFN response) all first thing in the morning, and did feel some improvements in brain fog after a month, but then I stopped the protocol, and lost the mild gains I may have made.

So now I am just repeating the process, but will try for a longer time than just 1 month.

I did not experience any negative effects on this protocol, and no worsening of symptoms (none of the "feeling worse before you get better" phenomena that Dr Chia often observes when he puts his patients on oxymatrine). The protocol was very well tolerated.

Was dizziness one of your prodromal symptoms before ME onset?

Not at all, so I wouldn't have thought this symptom is part of the feeling worse before you get better phenomenon.

In all my previous trials of oxymatrine I had used the White Tiger brand (in which each 1 gram tablet is an extract of Sophora flavescens root containing 20% oxymatrine). I often experienced dizziness within an hour of taking a tablet. The dizziness was always significantly increased if I pulverized the White Tiger tablet in powder before swallowing it, presumably due to the more rapid absorption of the tablet contents.

Sophora flavescens root does contain both oxymatrine and matrine (as well as sophoridine, which is antiviral for coxsackievirus B). In the body, oxymatrine taken orally is metabolized to matrine. It is possible that only the metabolite matrine causes dizziness (this study says matrine causes dizziness), but that oxymatrine does not. Matrine is considered more toxic than oxymatrine. Or it could be the sophoridine, which I guess is present in the White Tiger tablet, that causes the dizziness.

In this paper it says: "Sophora alkaloids, present in the herb kushen, are known to cause dizziness, nausea, and vomiting."

So the reason why the Alternative Medicine Solutions pure oxymatrine capsules don't cause dizziness might be because the oxymatrine is only slowly metabolized into matrine.

The white powder in the Alternative Medicine Solutions capsules looks just like the bulk oxymatrine powder that you can buy on www.aliexpress.com (a sort of Chinese eBay often with excellent prices for bulk powders). You can also buy bulk matrine powder.



It is not entirely clear whether it is oxymatrine or matrine that causes the immunomodulatory effect that fights enteroviruses:

When taken orally, much of the oxymatrine is converted to matrine; to get high blood levels of oxymatrine, it must be given by injection. However, it is unclear whether oxymatrine is clinically more effective than matrine.

Source: here

Here in a study on oxymatrine for asthma, they found that oral oxymatrine was effective, but intravenous oxymatrine was not, possibly because oxymatrine taken orally is metabolized to matrine, but intravenous oxymatrine is not so readily converted to matrine.

Though in this study where they injected oxymatrine into mice (thus we can presume the effects will be due to oxymatrine rather than matrine), they found the serum concentration of Th1 cytokines increased while the Th2 cytokines decreased.

So for Th2 to Th1 immunomodulation, that study suggests that oxymatrine has an active effect.

This makes me wonder whether oxymatrine injections might be a more effective way of treating ME/CFS, if oxymatrine is doing the immunomodulatory work. Apparently oxymatrine injectables are used in China.

 

[Hip]

@Hip how did your dihydroquercetin experience go??

I have answered your question here.

 

[Biarritz13]

Bristol Botanicals also sell it in different forms here.

 

[Hip]

Bristol Botanicals also sell it in different forms here.

Note that Sophora flavescens (Ku Shen root) herb contains 2% oxymatrine. Although if you are buying the Sophora flavescens 5:1 extract, that should contain 5 x 2% = 10% oxymatrine.

 

[Biarritz13]

Note that Sophora flavescens (Ku Shen root) herb contains 2% oxymatrine. Although if you are buying the Sophora flavescens 5:1 extract, that should contain 5 x 2% = 10% oxymatrine.

Do you know how much oxymatrine there is in 1 capsule of Equilibrant and what kind of Sophora F is it?

 

[Hip]

Do you know how much oxymatrine there is in 1 capsule of Equilibrant and what kind of Sophora F is it?

No, that remains unspecified, as Equilibrant is a proprietary formulation. However, since Dr Chia himself sometimes switches patients from Equilibrant to the other types of oxymatrine pills that are available, I think it is safe to assume that Equilibrant will contain a similar amount of oxymatrine to these other pills.

The White Tiger brand oxymatrine contains 200 mg of oxymatrine per tablet (plus some matrine, which also has immunomodulatory effects); the Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine capsules contain 300 mg of refined pure oxymatrine, with no matrine at all).

 

[Biarritz13]

No, that remains unspecified, as Equilibrant is a proprietary formulation. However, since Dr Chia himself sometimes switches patients from Equilibrant to the other types of oxymatrine pills that are available, I think it is safe to assume that Equilibrant will contain a similar amount of oxymatrine to these other pills.

The White Tiger brand oxymatrine contains 200 mg of oxymatrine per tablet (plus some matrine, which also has immunomodulatory effects); the Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine capsules contain 300 mg of refined pure oxymatrine, with no matrine at all).

1 pill of Equilibrant contains 1500 mg and Sophora F is only one part of the blend.
1 pill of White Tiger contains 1000 mg of Sophora F with 20% of Oxymatrine.

So you're right, they probably contain the same amount more or less (if 20% of Oxymatrine is standardised).