Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/the-brain-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs/choline-on-the-brain-a-guide-to-choline-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Enteroviruses - revisted

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by globalpilot, Feb 3, 2012.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,481
    Likes:
    17,174
    You have titers of 1:320 for echovirus 30 in the ARUP Lab tests? I believe Dr Chia would consider that evidence of a chronic active enterovirus infection. Dr Chia says the coxsackievirus B and echovirus serotypes that most commonly cause ME/CFS are:
    • CVB3 and CVB4 first and foremost
    • Then CVB2, EV6, EV7 and EV9
    • And then much less EV11
    He does not mention EV30, but I would think it may be able to cause ME/CFS along with these other serotypes. So EC30 could be behind your ME/CFS.


    Your CVB4 titers of 1:160 are one level below the threshold of 1:320 that Chia uses as the indication for active infection. But note that the test-retest accuracy of these types of antibody assays is often give or take one level. So for example, if you tested again the next day, you might find your CVB4 comes out as one level higher at 1:320, or equally one level lower at 1:80, just due to the inherent slight day to day inaccuracy of the antibody assay.

    So you might want to focus on EV30, but remain suspicious of CVB4, especially as CVB4 seems to be one of the most common enteroviruses that Dr Chia finds active in his ME/CFS patients.


    In any case, whether it is EV30 and/or CVB4 that night be behind your ME/CFS, the treatment Dr Chia uses for such enterovirus infections is oxymatrine. Sometimes he adds in another immunomodulator inosine. He also uses the antiviral Epivir against some enteroviruses, and more recently has been using tenofovir.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
    olegsel, Sancar and ErdemX like this.
  2. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,345
    Likes:
    5,495
    1:320 is a significant titer for that serotype. Echovirus 30 is what triggered my illness. Mine fluctuates between 1:320 and 1:640. It’s not a serotype that Chia has seen a lot of in the past.
     
    Sancar and Hip like this.
  3. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,481
    Likes:
    17,174
    By the way, for ME/CFS with active echovirus infection, my pharmacokinetic calculations indicated that betulinic acid (from Chaga mushroom supplement) has some useful antiviral effect for echovirus 6 (and possibly other echovirus types, though this is not proven, as the antiviral study focused on EV6).

    In these pharmacokinetic calculations, I calculate what I call the Potency Factor for various antiviral drugs, supplements and compounds. The Potency Factor is a figure which represents the strength of the antiviral in vivo when taken by humans.

    The Potency Factor for betulinic acid against EV6 came out as 167. To put this into context, the Potency Factor of the (unavailable) enterovirus antiviral pleconaril against EV11, EV24 and EV30 came out as 1,081. Generally speaking, the Potency Factor of most standard pharmaceutical drugs comes out in the thousands. For example, the Potency Factor of the powerful antiviral Valcyte against cytomegalovirus came out to be 4,500.

    So betulinic acid's Potency Factor of 167 is only modest, but it is possible it might provide mild benefits to ME/CFS patients with active echovirus.


    Betulinic acid is available as a supplement: some Chaga mushroom supplements contain up to 2% betulinic acid. See: 1 2 3 The Chaga mushroom dosage is around 500 mg twice daily (500 mg corresponds to 10 mg of betulinic acid).

    If you double the dose you will double the Potency Factor; but you might want to be cautious about going above the maximum recommended dose of Chaga mushrooms (I am not sure what the max recommended dose is).

    Betulinic acid itself appears to be fine at higher doses in mice: in various mice studies, betulinic acid doses of 20 to 250 mg/kg were used. This corresponds to human doses of 1.6 to 20 mg/kg, which for an 80 kg human, that is an oral dose of 128 to 400 mg of betulinic acid.


    In vitro, betulinic acid is a very potent antiviral for echovirus, slightly better than pleconaril. However, betulinic acid has poor absorption characteristics in the gut, and thus low oral bioavailability.

    I believe taking Chaga mushroom / betulinic acid with a fatty meal may improve absorption. This is because betulinic acid has very poor water solubility (which usually equates to low oral bioavailability), but dissolves to some extent in oil. Betulinic acid dissolves well in DMSO, so could be administered that way.

    If you could increase the bioavailability by say 5 times using DMSO (to guess a figure off the top of my head), then this would correspondingly increase the antiviral Potency Factor by 5 times.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
    Sancar, flitza and halcyon like this.
  4. flitza

    flitza Senior Member

    Messages:
    120
    Likes:
    157
    Yes. I see Dr. Chia and have an Echovirus that he feels is significant.
     
    Sancar likes this.
  5. JES

    JES Senior Member

    Messages:
    626
    Likes:
    1,096
    Stumbled on a website with some information about Enterovirus infections and possible antivirals. Some of the evidence seemed anecdotal and I don't know whether it would be of any use for non-acute enterovirus infection like the one present in CFS, but thought it would be of interest nevertheless.

     
    Sancar, Hip and ErdemX like this.
  6. perrier

    perrier Senior Member

    Messages:
    693
    Likes:
    1,266
    Not sure if this is to thread to post.

    I'm still wondering what Dr. Davis thinks about Dr. Chia's thesis. Do we have any news? I ask because earlier in this thread it states that Dr. Davis didn't find active viral infection, and found more in the controls.

    However, in Dr. Chia's tissue biopsies, there is evidence of enterovirus.But I don't know if Dr. Chia tested controls.

    I'd dearly like to know what Dr. Davis thinks. Please update. Thanks.
     
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,481
    Likes:
    17,174
    Do you mean Dr Ron Davis (there's also a Dr Mark Davis in ME/CFS research)? Would you have a link to an article about not finding active infection. A lot rests on how you test for infection, and how you interpret the results of the test.

    A lot of ME/CFS patients have high IgG antibody titers to enterovirus and/or herpesvirus infections — high titers that you don't tend to find in the general population. Some doctors interpret those high titers as indicating a chronic active infection somewhere in the body; whereas others think the high titers might just be due to immune dysfunction. In the case of enterovirus, though, we know through tissue biopsies of ME/CFS patients that there is a chronic active intracellular infection in the tissues, so the high titers may be a result of this tissue infection.
     
  8. perrier

    perrier Senior Member

    Messages:
    693
    Likes:
    1,266
    Dear Hip,
    I don't have a link; this morning, I recall reading here on a thread a short list of Dr Ron Davis' findings. And I noted that active viral infection was apparently not found, and the controls had more evidence of viral infection. ( I hope I am not garbling things here.)
    I am really anxious to know what Dr. Ron Davis and his team think of the enterovirus issue. Our dearest family member tested positive for the stomach biopsy, for enterovirus.

    Is this the cause of this horror illness, I don't know. But I do think that at this point this should be clarified. Is it or is it not enterovirus related. There should be some gathering of minds on this.

    Young people are in horrific situations, in dark rooms, day after day, month after months, year after year.

    So, I was just wanting to know if Dr. Ron Davis had examined Dr. Chia's thesis.
     
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,481
    Likes:
    17,174
    What you will find is that different researchers will have different views. Some favor the viral theory of ME/CFS, others think that some kind of immune dysfunction is the cause. And there are other theories too.

    Because the evidence for all these theories is less than conclusive at this point in time, and because all these researchers are investigating their own angle on this disease, you won't get to get much gathering of minds — and maybe that is in some sense a good thing, in that if the problem is approached from various perspectives, we can hope that at least one of those approaches will bear fruit.

    But I think a lot of patients feel that these various researchers should compare notes more often.

    Perhaps eventually some of these approaches will merge together: for example, in future we might in find that immune dysfunction is indeed the cause of ME/CFS, but that ongoing viral infection exacerbates or maintains the immune dysfunction, thus connecting these different areas of research.

    In terms of treatments for ME/CFS that are available today (that help a some patients), most of those are antiviral or immunomodulatory.
     
    perrier likes this.
  10. JES

    JES Senior Member

    Messages:
    626
    Likes:
    1,096
    I reckon one problem was that Ron Davis only looked for viruses in the blood, and as you say, the way to optimally diagnose enterovirus infection would be through biopsy. The blood tests that exist for enterovirus infection are often inaccurate, which is why Chia uses a specific lab for testing. So IMO the lack of viruses found by Davis' methodology, I wouldn't count it as any kind of proof for enterovirus not being a factor in CFS. Hopefully with collaboration of Davis and Chia, we will finally get a definite answer on this soon.

    I also have to mention that even if there is enterovirus infection confirmed by stomach biopsy, that alone doesn't confirm that CFS of your family member is driven by enterovirus. This because there is a percentage of healthy people that also harbour enteroviruses in their stomach.
     
    Hip likes this.
  11. perrier

    perrier Senior Member

    Messages:
    693
    Likes:
    1,266
    Thanks Jes,
    OK, I did not know that even healthy folks harbour enterovirus.
    The blood test also came out positive for enterovirus. This was done when the CFS first hit, over night, as it were.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page