emergency report from China

[Hip]

That coating is thrush. I eat alot of yogurt and take probiotics, so it's not a big problem for me at all. I don't think yogurt and dairy products were ever that heavy a part of the Chinese diet?

Not necessarily. There is a difference between oral thrush (candida albicans infection) and a geographic tongue infection.

See these images for comparison: oral thrush -versus- geographic tongue

In my case, I have geographic tongue. I don't think it is thrush.

If it is thrush, often the infection can be found on the sides of the mouth, gums, tonsils, and even the roof on the mouth. Mine is just on my tongue.

If it is thrush, then the tongue will bleed when the thrush is brushed off with a toothbrush. Sometimes it is painful. My tongue does not bleed when I brush off the white coating, and it is not painful.

Thrush has a "cottage cheese" appearance - a bit irregular, thick and lumpy. Geographic tongue is smoother (but often can have large bare patches in it, looking like islands - hence the name geographic tongue). My white coating is thin, completely smooth, and completely uniform and regular over my entire tongue.

Oral thrush will respond to anti-fungal drugs like fluconazole. When I tried high-dose fluconazole, it made no difference at all to my tongue coating. Therefore it is not thrush.

It is not bacterial either, since several throat swabs performed by various doctors showed no oral bacterial infection.

So I think this is an infection by the virus. Enterovirus, for example, has strong affinity for the gastrointestinal tract, and the tongue is part of the GI tract. So the stomach aches, the bowel disturbances, and the tongue infection are probably just the virus infecting various areas along the GI tract.

 

[Carrigon]

I cannot tolerate a life without dignity and purpose.

Who says you don't have purpose. You do, you just don't know what it is yet.

 

[madday]

Not necessarily. There is a difference between oral thrush (candida albicans infection) and a geographic tongue infection.

See these images for comparison: oral thrush -versus- geographic tongue

In my case, I have geographic tongue. I don't think it is thrush.

If it is thrush, often the infection can be found on the sides of the mouth, gums, tonsils, and even the roof on the mouth. Mine is just on my tongue.

If it is thrush, then the tongue will bleed when the thrush is brushed off with a toothbrush. Sometimes it is painful. My tongue does not bleed when I brush off the white coating, and it is not painful.

Thrush has a "cottage cheese" appearance - a bit irregular, thick and lumpy. Geographic tongue is smoother (but often can have large bare patches in it, looking like islands - hence the name geographic tongue). My white coating is thin, completely smooth, and completely uniform and regular over my entire tongue.

Oral thrush will respond to anti-fungal drugs like fluconazole. When I tried high-dose fluconazole, it made no difference at all to my tongue coating. Therefore it is not thrush.

It is not bacterial either, since several throat swabs performed by various doctors showed no oral bacterial infection.

So I think this is an infection by the virus. Enterovirus, for example, has strong affinity for the gastrointestinal tract, and the tongue is part of the GI tract. So the stomach aches, the bowel disturbances, and the tongue infection are probably just the virus infecting various areas along the GI tract.

My tongue looked more like in the pictures show the geografic one although candida albicans was diagnosed - twice.

 

[Hip]

You can buy anti-fungal fluconazole oral tablets without prescription from the pharmacist. It is often sold under the names Diflucan or Trican or Canesten, and usually used for vaginal thrush. Usually one tablet is enough. This can be a way to test whether it is thrush or not.

Also, if you put some of your tongue coating into a glass of water, it will grow into long strands after while, if it is thrush. But if it is geographic tongue, it will not grow at all in the water. See here: http://www.candidasupport.org/test_saliva.html

 

[hanchuchu]

my tongue is fully covered by the coating and I cannot see my tongue. some patients have been diagonosed candida albicans. This stuff indicates the weakness of immune system. This coating is one of the ongoing syptoms in our case.

 

[Hip]

If your doctors have taken a sample of the tongue coating, and grown it on a culture dish to prove it is candida, or looked at it under a microscope to prove it is candida, then fine, that is a proper diagnosis of candida. Otherwise they are just guessing.

If the white coating is only on your tongue, and not anywhere else in the mouth, the chances are it is NOT candida.

It is true that AIDS patients often have oral candida, due to immune suppression. But usually this covers more than the tongue; patches grow all over the mouth. See here.



I always brush off my white coating every day just with my toothbrush, it takes just 10 seconds.

 

[starryeyes]

Hip, Thank you for explaining the difference between oral thrush and geographic tongue. While reading your informative post I realized that I have geographic tongue as well. I came down with CEBV 25 years ago. I bet it is an enterovirus or a virus that acts like one. My intestines and digestion are a mess.

I do also have intestinal Candidiasis Krusei which is a very rare type usually found in transplant patients but I can't handle treatments for it and finally had to add some carbs and sugars back into my diet.


tee

 

[Carrigon]

The China connection, been thinking about that and didn't know if I should mention this or not. My uncle, who absolutely refuses to believe the disease exists, he was on a business trip to China several years ago. I can't remember the year and think it was his second trip. He designs nuclear plants and does engineering consulting work. I'm kind of wondering if his trips coincided with the outbreak in China. He had minimal exposure to me, but it just kind of makes you wonder. His daughter also did translation work for Chinese diplomats in NY years ago. She, too, appears to be healthy and refuses to believe the disease exists. It just makes you wonder if they are carriers.

As far as contagion goes, my neighbor seems to be coming down with it. I had fixed her computer a few times when I moved in here. She was healthy like crazy when I moved in. She had the energy of a hundred people. I think her health problems started about nine months ago or so. She now has POTS and had to quit her job at Walmart. And now if you talk to her, she keeps saying she feels sick all the time. I'm kind of waiting to hear her get the CFIDS diagnosis one of these days. I don't think it's a coincidence my neighbor got POTS after I moved in here.

How contagious is it? I don't know. I had a babysitter who had it, way back in the 70's and we didn't find out until I got sick. I also had a high school tutor in the 80's who had POTS back then and I don't think it was even called it then, she said it was attacks of low blood pressure where she'd faint. I guess we'll never know what the real contagion was in my case. I also remember being about seven years old and there was a neighbor, about two doors down. The girl was a few years older than me, rarely ever left the house. Everyone thought it was weird. She didn't go out. And I remember something about her not feeling well. You really never know. It's just interesting to find out how prevalent it is.

 

[hanchuchu]

the virus has a long history in China, I guess

The China connection, been thinking about that and didn't know if I should mention this or not. My uncle, who absolutely refuses to believe the disease exists, he was on a business trip to China several years ago. I can't remember the year and think it was his second trip. He designs nuclear plants and does engineering consulting work. I'm kind of wondering if his trips coincided with the outbreak in China. He had minimal exposure to me, but it just kind of makes you wonder. His daughter also did translation work for Chinese diplomats in NY years ago. She, too, appears to be healthy and refuses to believe the disease exists. It just makes you wonder if they are carriers.

As far as contagion goes, my neighbor seems to be coming down with it. I had fixed her computer a few times when I moved in here. She was healthy like crazy when I moved in. She had the energy of a hundred people. I think her health problems started about nine months ago or so. She now has POTS and had to quit her job at Walmart. And now if you talk to her, she keeps saying she feels sick all the time. I'm kind of waiting to hear her get the CFIDS diagnosis one of these days. I don't think it's a coincidence my neighbor got POTS after I moved in here.

How contagious is it? I don't know. I had a babysitter who had it, way back in the 70's and we didn't find out until I got sick. I also had a high school tutor in the 80's who had POTS back then and I don't think it was even called it then, she said it was attacks of low blood pressure where she'd faint. I guess we'll never know what the real contagion was in my case. I also remember being about seven years old and there was a neighbor, about two doors down. The girl was a few years older than me, rarely ever left the house. Everyone thought it was weird. She didn't go out. And I remember something about her not feeling well. You really never know. It's just interesting to find out how prevalent it is.

Carrigon,

We have one infected with this virus for more than 10 years, so it has a long history.

I just want to say that the situation is not so scary as you imagined. I believe no problem with your uncle or his daughter. This virus is very infectious, but if without very close physical contact, it cannot be passed. No need to worry about your neighbor. If you have dinner at the same table or do talking too closely, it is possible to be exposed.

Please relax.

 

[jz2k2]

Sorry to bump this thread up again.

There is no 'mystery-HIV' illness spreading in China. I can't believe some of the posts I've read on this thread. People w/no medical training/knowledge should not be diagnosing themselves for a disease they do not have based on NON-specific symptoms such as swollen nodes and sinus pain. That is not only irrational, but stressful and will only make symptoms worse because stress DOES have an affect on your immune system/response!! Even if you do NOT have an illness. (I.e. stress is directly corrolated scientifically to abnormal CBC/lymphocyte readings, and allergic responses, etc)

I unfortunately, have had experienced this debacle first hand. I had moved from USA to a major Chinese city last September and fell incredibly ill with at the time what I thought as a respiratory problem. In fact I am still 'ill' and not fully recovered but the last couple weeks have been well on my way (feeling much better) It started with high fever, sore throat, dry cough, swollen lymph nodes (generalized lymphadenopathy), rash. I've had mono when I was a child and since I have a girlfriend in China the first suspicion was I may have caught some life threatening infectious disease such as HIV. I had the full battery of tests done multiple times, it's not HIV.

My CBCs and lymphocyte counts came back abnormal multiple times, too high, too low, etc, etc. Been on 5 different antibiotics.

Luckily for me, I had flown back to the USA twice to conduct additional tests in addition to tests done in China. And the very interesting point was both times I went back to the USA, i stayed for a week or more and my illness either resolved or greatly improved, that is until I returned back to China.

Doctors had both suspected unidentified bacterial infection and likely co-infection with unidentified virus because each time I take antibiotics a majority of my symptoms goes away (swollen nodes) but some symptoms remain. Both sides doctors concurred I had likely a respiratory problem of unknown origin that is PERSISTENT.

I had left the issue of not identifying the root cause alone. Actually in the United States, you CAN find the root cause if its viral/bacterial by running tests that China may not have. In fact, you can identify nearly any virus/bacteria with some of the new testing methods. However, because doctors need to order each test individually (1 test for each virus/bacterial type) - it is un-economical and very taxing on the healthcare system so it is never done - and never approved by most HMO/PPO plans. (It can cost $20-30K USD to run thru it all and several weeks to over a month). So for the average Joe like me we would have to settle for it being "unidentified" - but rest assured, if it were Barack Obama who had came down with this illness, they would definitely have been able to find the root cause agent.


HOWEVER, let me further explain how I went on the road to recovery...


What fixed the issue for me was a specialist at one of the Beijings most well known hospitals as well as one of the doctors in a well known US University hospital....

i was prescribed nasal and throat fluticasone spray. (cortesteroids). It works like a charm and resolved a majority of the issues.

Evidently there is an abundant mixture of unsafe chemicals/dust/pollutants/allergants mixed into the air in major China cities, and it has caused my immune system to go haywire (weaken and misfire) to cause all sort of flu like symptoms and cause uncontrolled bacterial co-infection inside my throat as well that has become recurrent. The viral agent that caused the initial pharyngitis was just a trigger for the systemic problem of allergies/mis-programmed immune responses to follow ---- in fact I was told this by the china doctor who says she's seen many people of my case type, particularly visitors that are relocating to China and have just arrived in the past 12 months - typically she's seen them fall sick for nearly a year each with nearly the same symptoms as me.

The last dose of antibiotics i took was with my flouticasone spray and so far the 'mystery' iillness has not come back and I am feeling much better now each day.

The Chinese govt in major cities should analyze the air quality, as I feel it is causing these type of problems for people.

The disease is a combination of a common unidentified respiratory agent (likely viral) exasperated by pollutants in the air resulting in a persistently infected state which may cause additional stress on the body resulting in other co-infections (such as strep/staph) and an immune system that goes hayfire.

China, please fix your air quality!

However i do have a gripe against the medical community. They should devote some research dollars to come up with a diagnostic test that can test for an array of common respiratory viruses (such as influenza, adenovirus, etc) and its most common mutations. And on top of that, come up with a wider variety of anti-virals aside from Tamiflu to treat these illnesses.

 

[Hip]

That is a very useful bit of information that you have provided jz2k2, regarding the fluticasone propionate nasal spray (corticosteroid) - thanks very much indeed.

I suspect that I caught the same nasty Chinese virus, but in Europe 7 years ago, and as a result I develpoed a very intensely miserable form of chronic fatigue syndrome (due to the extreme anxiety disorder that came with it).

Recently, I have come to the conclusion that most of the grotesque mental symptoms this nasty virus generates are caused not by the virus itself, but by the over-active inflammatory response that the immune system mounts in response, especially in the nasal and sinus cavities. The inflammatory process in the sinuses seems to have a powerful knock-on effect on the central nervous system, producing all the horrible mental symptoms I experienced, like extreme anxiety states that can even edge on psychosis for a few hours. (More info on these virally-instigated extreme anxiety states / generalized anxiety disorder on my blog.)

In my case, I found considerable relief from COX-2 anti-inflammatory agents. I used the more potent herbal COX-2 inhibitors like clove oil, thyme oil, curcumin, bee propolis, and others. (Interestingly, TNF-alpha anti-inflammatories did not provide much relief when I tried them, but the COX-2 inhibitors work pretty well).

I am certainly going to give this fluticasone propionate nasal spray a try, to see if it can further relive the intense anxiety this virus produces. This anti-inflammatory corticosteroid nasal spray may be the answer. I know someone with this virus that has body-wide inflammation, and has to be on corticosteroids tablets permanently, because as soon as they stop, the systemic inflammation comes back.

I don't think the fluticasone nasal spray will cure my chronic fatigue syndrome (but you can always hope!), but if it can help more effectively eliminate the extreme generalized anxiety disorder, it will be a wondrous improvement for me, and perhaps also for thousands of the anxiety-afflicted people in China (and everywhere else) that have this virus.

I also have had the same experience with air pollution exacerbating my inflammatory symptoms: even if I go into an air-conditioned environment, my symptoms become noticeably worse (air-con can often be bacteria-laden and more polluted than fresh air). So polluted cities would be very bad, once you have this virus.

You are quite right in saying that the extra stress derived from irrationally believing that this is some kind of new HIV variant or some new retrovirus will not help symptoms. But in reality, the extreme stress symptoms experienced are actually created by the biochemical action of this virus itself. I have observed that this nasty virus creates a very perturbed mental state in a small percentage of the people who catch it - say less than 10%. It is this biochemically-induced anxiety/mild psychosis that then gives rise to these irrational and fearful thoughts about new HIV viruses. In my observation, the other 90% of people who catch this virus who don't get the hyper-anxiety symptoms do not not worry at all about this virus. Ergo, the anxiety symptoms are biochemically-induced.

These other 90% do, however, often get a very mild touch of chronic fatigue syndrome, and some depression, and often have a change in their social habits (they suddenly find they prefer quiet tranquility to gregariousness), but this 90% never particularly worries about this. They do not have altered "anxiety circuits" in their brain.

But for the 10% that do get the extreme generalized anxiety disorder, EVERYTHING becomes a major panic and super-stressful. I know, it happened to me. Also, there is noticeable immune suppression with this virus, so to call it an AIDS-like virus is not so far fetched; but this virus is certainly is not some new HIV. Some degree of immune suppression is common in CFS, anyhow.

The information you have kindly provided on the fluticasone propionate nasal spray needs to be tried on these people in China that were hit with extreme generalized anxiety disorder from this virus. These corticosteroids may instantly calm them back to normal, as COX-2 anti-inflammatory agents have done to a significant extent with me. Many thanks once again for this info.

Note: This new virus may be a potent new enterovirus variant; it has all the hallmarks of an enterovirus.

BTW, check out the ViroChip technology for very rapid and very cheap identification of any virus/bacteria, even new ones. This I think will be generally available in a few years.

 

[Hip]

Can I ask a question on dosage, jz2k2: how often do you need to take this nasal spray? It is every few hours you need to apply a dose, or say just once or twice a day?

I just wondered what your doctor advised.

 

[jace]

jz2k2 said

There is no 'mystery-HIV' illness spreading in China

Wow, how many millions of research dollars did you spend to prove that hypothesis? I mean, you must have had to test millions of people - in all the provinces...

I had moved from USA to a major Chinese city last September and fell incredibly ill with at the time what I thought as a respiratory problem. In fact I am still 'ill' and not fully recovered but the last couple weeks have been well on my way (feeling much better)

The disease is a combination of a common unidentified respiratory agent (likely viral) exasperated by pollutants in the air resulting in a persistently infected state which may cause additional stress on the body resulting in other co-infections (such as strep/staph) and an immune system that goes hayfire.

I would like to respectfully suggest that you have made some sweeping generalisations on the basis of only your own individual experience. Perhaps you would like to find and consider some more evidence, before jumping to conclusions.

 

[Esther12]

I thought it was good to get jz2k2's take.

I don't think he should have been required to have spent millions of research dollars any more than hanchuchu. It seems like there's a lack of evidence either way.

China's not got the best environmental safeguards at the moment, and it wouldn't be that amazing if this was inducing health problems.

 

[jace]

Esther, I'm sure China's pollution problems are causing health issues, just as they do elsewhere. I think we should take other's posts on face value, and not say someone else has got it completely wrong. China is one huge country, people there are likely to be suffering just as we are. For many reasons, with different illnesses.

 

[Esther12]

Esther, I'm sure China's pollution problems are causing health issues, just as they do elsewhere. I think we should take other's posts on face value, and not say someone else has got it completely wrong. China is one huge country, people there are likely to be suffering just as we are. For many reasons, with different illnesses.

Sure - but jz2k2 made it pretty clear he was just speaking from personal experience. He could have phrased things more gently, but it's good to have people explain their different experiences. I didn't get the impression he meant to insult anyone.

 

[jace]

The start of jz2k2's post reads
There is no 'mystery-HIV' illness spreading in China. I can't believe some of the posts I've read on this thread.

That annoyed me.

to steal from Koan, peace out x

 

[Esther12]

That annoyed me.

to steal from Koan, peace out x

Fair enough.

 

[Hip]

I think jz2k2 should be given the benefit of the doubt in the interpretation on his statement "There is no 'mystery-HIV' illness spreading in China".

After all, I for one am very grateful that he did join this forum on the same day he made his post, in order to provided that very valuable bit of information about the corticosteroid nasal spray resolving the majority of the issues.

Although I am sure there a new virus (possibly a new enterovirus variant) going around causing these symptoms in China and everywhere else, it is not, as many in China believe, some new HIV stain or some other retrovirus that now can pass via saliva. Retroviruses only transmit via blood, as far as I am aware. So this fact needs to be made known to those in China. And here in the West too: as I know a few people here that I think caught this virus, and were very scared it was some new HIV mutation, and took lots and lots of repeated HIV tests, just of out that fear. However, as mentioned, much of this fear and anxiety is actually caused by the biochemistry and inflammation of the viral infection itself.

 

[hanchuchu]

Hello again.

I don't think it is useful to argue the existence of the virus. Some scientist have admitted we have foreign invaders in the body after reading our medical report. Unfortunately, they just don't initiate the study. We are waiting for dealth...

At least five top research centers in the world acknowledged the occurance of such a horrible event in China, but none of them takes real action. Pasteur Shanghai has studied the virus for almost half a year and they cannot even find a clue. I don't know what's the next move. I am still surviving, but death is approaching day by day. My skin has become kind of dark, although some medicine improved other syptoms.

I think I have get rid of anxiety and accepted the fact very calmly. The reduce of anxiety did bring some benefit , at least I don't want to kill other people... ha ha