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Emergency, Please Help

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by joejack102, Oct 20, 2017.

  1. joejack102

    joejack102

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    I'm so sorry to hear this. I hope you are feeling better.


    I have tried Methyl-Folate extensively and had no benefits. Also, I tried Folic Acid. I realized that 100% RDA of folic acid is already in many of the cereals that I eat, and you do not want to overdose on Folic Acid as it can be toxic. I took it as a supplement in addition to what I get in my daily diet to no avail. I'm not sure what else is left to try? Can you be more specific with your ideas? I'm beginning to doubt that methylation is directly related at this point, but I'm completely lost.
     
  2. joejack102

    joejack102

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    Is this a clue?

    (Hope this doesn't confuse things even more!) Back before I had ever tried Choline and when I was super-ultra-sensitive to meds/herbs, the herb Ashwagandha would temporarily decrease my sensitivities to that of a normal person. And the herb Chamomile would increase my sensitivities.

    Both are ineffective at fixing this problem now that they both do not work properly post-Choline.
     
  3. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    I don't mean methylfolate in isolation and I certainly wouldn't recommend folic acid. It can cause more problems than it solves.

    I mean methylfolate might have become limiting, the thing that is stopping everything else from working.

    You might consider trying again, ensuring that all the b vitamins, minerals especially magnesium, essential fatty acids etc are onboard and slowly adding B12 and folate, starting with small doses.

    Here is a post I wrote that describes the process - you can adapt things to suit yourself. Freddd canvasses most of the things that are useful though for you now I would say ignore TMG, choline and SAMe. The TMG thread gives some indications of details that people have found helpful. The refeeding thread that I linked earlier may be helpful also.

    In your case I suspect you could find you need large amounts of folate at least for a while. Don't be afraid to increase the dose if you seem to be getting some response.

    It may be that this is not helpful, but given that you seem to have these things on hand, it would be easy enough to try again.
     
  4. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    There could be several things going on at the same time. Choline can influence the methylation cycle but of course it also influences neurotransmitters. Ashwagandha has cholineric effects so this suggests that some of the effects of choline may have been due to its effect on acetylcholine.

    This is why I said it would have been interesting in the past to try TMG. This would single out the effects on the methylation cycle and not affect acetylcholine.

    All you can do now is try different things separately. Methylation effects may be the easiest to try first. Trying to influence neurotransmitters can be fraught with difficulty. Personally I have found that any benefits gained from nootropics are very short lived and they quickly cause me problems.
     
  5. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

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    The nootropics forums are littered with posts of terrible reactions to choline and uridine supplements (cdp-choline is prodrug for uridine, it depends how much/how you took it though it's less likely maybe) and nobody knows for sure. But a change in acetylcholine receptors is a common theme in drug induced issues from nicotine to amitriptyline withdrawal, and choline+uridine affect them, so something could have shifted in your muscarinic/nicotinic receptor sensitivity. All I can say from the limited information here is if you focus on the most obscure and least questioned pathways first (don't worry it's a popular strategy) you'll just drive yourself insane.
     
  6. joejack102

    joejack102

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    You could be very right. What do I need to do? How on earth can I reverse this? Any specific ideas? My body is falling apart, and I have no energy reserves left and I'm in extreme agony. Can you please help me find a theory on what I could try that could reverse this?
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  7. joejack102

    joejack102

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    I assure you I have tried these things extensively with not an ounce of benefit. The only thing I can think of at the moment is that the version of Methyl-Folate I tried (besides regular Folic Acid) was called Quatrefolic®. And I do not believe I have tried Metafolin®. Are you aware if this would make a major difference?
     
  8. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

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    There's no simple way to put this. I'm a heavy choline and prior uridine user and I could not figure out acetylcholine receptors for my case chiefly because in the research they don't always behave like traditional receptors w.r.t. to up/downregulation, and there are at least 5 [muscarinic] types dispersed differently in the body, so I essentially gave up and go by experimentation, because there were no in vivo studies to confirm or deny my ideas. They do affect the hypothalamus/pituitary stress response though is clear.

    You seem to be running on adrenaline and the truth is you don't know how long it will take you to fix this. In your situation I would try to find some easy bandaid solutions even if it's just once or twice a week, to keep afloat. I mean things like benzos, opioids, maybe antipsychotics, as long as you don't addict easily. Unfortunately you mention respiratory depression so these might not be safe depending on the cause, but there'll be something.

    Your problem came from chronic exposure so your solution would probably be an extended course of something. This is where I stop because due to the chaos, there's no way to say if trying substances "on faith" even if they temporarily feel like hell will leave you with positive or negative regulatory affects after you come off it. But unless people here have more ideas about tests to run it might have to be trial and error, which is slow process; you have to give things time to work w.r.t. receptor regulation. The first thing to try is just stop taking everything for 3-4 months or so and see if it fixes itself, no idea if you tried that or not.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  9. TenuousGrip

    TenuousGrip Senior Member

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    This is the one thing I've been thinking about adding.

    Sometimes .... sometimes ... the right thing to do IS nothing.

    Maybe it is in your case.

    Maybe.

    All the best ....
     
    Tunguska likes this.
  10. joejack102

    joejack102

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    I've tried that for years. And the result is the same: I'm extremely fatigued and exhausted.
     
  11. joejack102

    joejack102

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    Did you sensitivity to meds & herbs decrease from Choline usage by chance? Did it make you chronically fatigued? Do herbal remedies have any effect on you anymore or do they seem to do the opposite of what they are supposed to?
     
  12. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

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    I was already "insensitive" to many things before choline. Herbs are useless or slightly negative to me. Overdoing choline definitely causes me several issues along that line. But the AI is ~500mg/day for men and too low hampers my cognition (I try get from egg yolks, the bitartrate appeared questionable so stopped that; used high TMG but stopped that).

    The next simplest thing is a low-choline but high protein/amino-acid diet for extended time (medium-range carbs), 90g/day or more. I benefit from this for years, but some of the aminos only work well in free form. If that does nothing, then the opposite: a low-ish protein diet or methionine-restricted diet for 1-3 months (temporary; low protein and no choline breaks down). This is very generic; after that fails, it's trial and error on different substances pointed out, cholinergic/anticholinergic or other. Extra info, foods contain different anticholinesterase compounds that may affect anything you do. That's probably the extent I can help you.
     
  13. Judee

    Judee

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    Okay, just so you know, I'm nowhere as smart as most of the commenters on this website when it comes to all this methylation stuff. I know Dr Ben Lynch has a practitioner search on one of his websites so you might be able to find someone in your area who has gone through some of his training on this and can advise you.

    That being said, I was thinking something similar to what another poster said that it was helping before because you were depleted but now you have an excess. Dr Lynch advises taking days off once in a while from most supplements. I think to try and avoid this type of situation.

    My first, maybe overly simplistic, thought was that you have an excess floating around in your system and so I did an internet search on what depletes choline. One of the things mentioned is caffeine. I'm not recommending using something like that daily, but just as a sort of temporary antigen. (Of course, if you know you don't tolerate it well then don't try it.)

    Anyway, that is my uneducated thought. You know your own body so be cautious in anything you do. Maybe someone else will give insight on why this would be a bad idea and I would welcome that as I don't want to steer anyone in a wrong direction.

    Hope this post is somewhat helpful to you in some way.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2017
  14. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    Sorry if I come late joe, but why did you take choline, I don't get the point?

    it doesn't seem acurate to take it for ME, or am I missing something?

    http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/...nic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005
     
  15. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Fine, I'm just trying to suggest possibilities based on very limited information.

    There may well be differences in response to the two forms of folate but I can't see how this would make a major difference.
     
  16. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    That would be my suggestion also if what you have done is to downregulate receptors.
     
  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    The only one I tolerate is Folinic Acid (Calcium Folinate). I don't think it makes sense to take Methylfolate because choline is a methyl donor. You don't need more methyl groups.

    Magnesium can help with overmethylation. The only form that helps me is Magnesium Oxide. Looking at the charts you posted, you don't want to take Magnesium Glycinate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  18. joejack102

    joejack102

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    @Tunguska YOU ARE SPOT ON!!!!!!!

    I'm now completely convinced this was caused by CDP-Choline (citicoline) due to the fact that it increases the dopamine receptor densities. This has got to be related. And I know Uridine allegedly does something very similar.

    This is still an emergency situation for me, because I feel like death and nobody can help. Is there any chance everyone can research CDP-Choline and it's effects on the nervous system receptors and help me come up with ideas on how to counteract it? Please. I'm desperate.

    I'm beginning to think that methylation is WAY OFF and unrelated to my problem here.
     
  19. joejack102

    joejack102

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    I did that for a period of over FIVE YEARS!!! Didn't work. This problem with CDP Choline started in Fall 2009 and has continued until this very day. It got worse when I was trying to reverse it and used more CDP Choline this year. Again, this is an emergency. I'm in severely bad shape and the E.R. does not know how to help me.
     
  20. joejack102

    joejack102

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    Any other help guys? What does CDP Choline do that I could reverse? I'm so sick I feel like I'm dying. E.R. doesn't know what to do. Can anybody help me research?
     

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