Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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Elevated Energy Production in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Patients

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by A.B., Oct 18, 2016.

  1. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    Non-mitochondrial sources would include glycolysis.

    http://www.jnsci.org/files/article/2016/e221.pdf
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  2. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Well this is unexpected.
     
  3. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    Yes, this is confusing.
    atp.png It seems to go against the hypometabolism findings. What is all this energy spent on?

    Is it possible this is unique to the peripheral blood mononuclear cells that were studied here?
     
  4. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    From the discussion:

     
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  5. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    This is confusing (both in that I don't completely understand what they're saying and what I do understand is opposite to what I expect to read!). glycolysis issues?
     
  6. Keela Too

    Keela Too Sally Burch

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    Edit Apologies - The *less ATP comment below isn't correct

    Hmmmm So all the structures for producing ATP are seen in the mitochondria at an elevated level.... but then the graph shows that there is actually LESS ATP in the mitochondria than expected.... why? Are the mitochondria reacting by trying to set up a greater structural production system, but for some reason that isn't working.

    The higher non-mito (ie glycolysis) ATP might then be taking up the slack in the production of ATP for the cell.... but this might also produce other metabolites like lactic acid that in turn inhibit functioning?

    Not sure... going to see if I can read the paper itself.... lots to think on here.

    Edit to add: Seems that the mitochondrial structures ARE in fact operating as expected. Curiouser and curiouser.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2016
  7. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    Very interesting. Hyper-glycolysis might explain my constant sugar craving. Not sure if other people get that too?
     
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  8. Tuha

    Tuha Senior Member

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    Are these findings contradictory to Naviaux┬┤s findings? I saw that some members of the research team are also from Stanford. It would be interesting to know if they cooperate with prof. Davis.
     
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  9. Keela Too

    Keela Too Sally Burch

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    Indeed snowathlete.

    I know some have increased sugar appetite. However although I'd like to eat it, I have had some bad reactions to increased sugar, so tend not to crave it any more. (Seriously, I ate an icecream with all the caramel sauces one day with my daughter and felt seriously ick afterwards, shakes the lot. :( )
     
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  10. J.G

    J.G

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    Wow, this is unexpected and counterintuitive (to me anyway). If we manage to reconcile these new insights with previous hypometabolic findings we'll make a significant step forward. (And it'll be a textbook case of 'thesis, antithesis, synthesis' at work. I love it. In such quick succession, too.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  11. Keela Too

    Keela Too Sally Burch

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    I've sent the paper to my daughter who is doing a biomed PhD currently. Her initial comment (across a mug of tea here) is that maybe there is a block in the metabolic pathway that hasn't been measured? The paper seems to suggest that the Electron Transport Chain is all operating correctly.... but why then is there less ATP in the mitochondria? Is less being produced, or is it getting used up?

    Of course these are white blood cells that are being used not muscles, so maybe they are working harder fighting infections or something? (Free-wheeling with ideas now). I wonder what a comparison of muscle mitochondria would look like?
     
  12. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    This goes to how our mitochondria work. If there is a deficiency (and this does not have to be ATP) due to a functional (as in biochemical) impairment, then there might be structural changes to try to compensate. I would also want to know about non mitochondrial ATP, as in what is the actual source.

    Many years ago it was briefly discussed that we might be diverting ATP to nonproductive functions, such as vicious cycles of metabolism. I wonder if there is any connection here. I forget the specifics now, but the idea is we keep moving metabolites round and round and don't actually need them. Another possibility is that a metabolite deficiency has us converting and reconverting the same metabolites, using up ATP, but still not getting enough because its the same pool that is being converted and not enough new metabolites are being synthesized.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  13. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    @Keela Too yes muscle version of study definitely worth knowing.

    Is all that energy going to the immune system? Baffling.
     
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  14. Simon

    Simon

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    Julia Newton's muscle culture work indicated the problem was with pyruvate dehydrogenase ie in the cytoplasm so glycolysis seems to be normal, but not neough pyruvate is produced, needed to fuel the mitochondira
     
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  15. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    This is needed to determine the tissue distribution. Indeed if it were not unethical and very dangerous, I would want to know about nerve mitochondria as well.
     
  16. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    So could that chime with the Naviaux study? I was feeling encouraged because a few researchers have said they've so far found similar results to Naviaux (is that 4 times? not sure I'm remembering right). This seemed discouraging as to my lay reading it is contradictory, but perhaps reading it wrong?
     
  17. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    My memory was that she did find a glycolysis problem. Have I remembered wrong?
     
  18. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    Indeed, one needs to remember that blood metabolomics measures the average of all the body's metabolism. Here they looked at peripheral blood mononuclear cells. Maybe this is a local effect, while the global situation is that of hypometabolism.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  19. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Yes, I think 4 times so far, 2 USA, 1 Japan, and 1 Norway. ATP and general metabolites are not the same. Also using ATP to do things will require other things being present, including metabolites. If we are forcing ATP production to try to do things, then it seems the problem may not be mitochondrial, and something is blocking us using ATP rather than making it. That might even be autoantibodies.

    Please keep in mind that this finding is new and we need more research.
     
  20. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    This is what I was thinking of:
    from http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0122982

    Is glucose uptake a different process from glycolysis? I may be misunderstanding the processes.
     
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