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Electrolyte Sachets, some first hand experience, and some questions.

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by AndrewB, Sep 10, 2011.

  1. AndrewB

    AndrewB Senior Member

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    Hello everyone,

    Hope your all as well as can be expected.
    Ive been very poorly lately, my relapse and continued 11 days into its third month.
    One of my family were out shopping and decided to buy me some Electrolyte Sachets,
    i hadnt asked for them, i didnt even really know what they were really.
    Anyway, about 20 minutes after drinking the first one, i felt a boost of energy, and the brain fog
    thats been really bad this past few weeks seemed to vanish, i also felt a definate mood enhancement,
    and it wasnt just because of the slight increase in energy either, it seemed to actually lift my depression.
    Sadly, these effect's didnt last more than an hour, but on repeated consumption, the benefits return.
    Baring in mind im bed bound at the moment, but if i were up and about, and i needed to do something
    that required some degree of concentration these sachets would be a god send.

    So questions to those who know the science, why are these drinks having that healing effect on my mood,
    the brain fog, and on the unrelenting fatigue ?

    Anyway, take care everyone.

    And why are the effects only lasting from 45 min to an hour ?

    Andrew
     
  2. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi andrew,

    That.s great that you found some relief via hydration. Most of us have chronic dehydration issues and use something like you did throughout the day. I know cheney has written about this but I.m not sure who else.

    Water alone won.t give you the results you got with this electrolyte supplement.

    I just figured this out myself after 21 years .. I have a thread on the dinet, dysautonomiaboard where members listed what they take for this. There are a lot of good ideas there from people who deal with this. Search for dehydration.

    I.ve yet to find a solution but I just started working on it. Definitely avoid anything that dehydrates you tho ... Coffee and alcohol come to mind.

    Also, mine doesn.t appear to be linked to urinating too frequently either. So that theory has ben ruled out for me at least.

    Hth x

    Oops ... Forgot to say that I.m using bananas and banana smoothies w salt for my electrolytes now. I couldn't tolerate french.s nosalt or emergenc electrolyte pkgs.

    here it is .. I'm dizzysillyak over there ... lol ...

    http://forums.dinet.org/index.php?/...2__hl__dehydration__fromsearch__1#entry162622
     
  3. AndrewB

    AndrewB Senior Member

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    hi there, i do drink about 1 and a half litres of water a day, and rarely drink tea anymore.
    i wondered why the slight improvements only lasted a short while.
    i'll look for the thread you mentioned, thanks again...
     
  4. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Electrolyes help you retain fluids. Most of us are low on blood and dehydrated. My CFS specialist has told me to drink at least 2 litres of water a day. The effect probably didn't last because you didn't get enough of either electrolytes or water.

    My dysautonomia doc routinely gave 2 to 4 bags of saline IV when patients were in a slump. It helps many of us immediately. Also try drinking a whole litre of unflavored (not sugared) pedialite at tough times. It may give you a longer improvement. Many of us sip electrolyte drinks (preferabely non-sugared) throughout the day.

    Best wishes,
    Sushi
     
  5. ggingues

    ggingues $10 gift code at iHerb GAS343 of $40

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    You might want to check out this product: http://www.nuun.com/#/?exn=nuunnews

    I saw it mentioned on a ME/CFS exercise video, I believe it was suggested by Dr. Klimas. FYI

    GG
     
  6. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Hi X - thanks for this, I wasn't aware of dinet. Is this the thread you mean?

    That's interesting that you are using food with salt (like someone mentions on that thread) plus water rather than the usual electrolyte drinks that are essentially water with salts added. I've tried a couple of prepared electrolyte drinks (Gatorade, I think, and recently coconut water) and found them a bit nasty and too high in sugar. I'm assuming I get enough carbohydrate in my diet anyway and am trying to lose weight so I'd rather avoid added sugar.

    I've recently started eating a couple of bananas a day to try to get my potassium levels up while on Freddd's b12 protocol (which can induce a potassium deficiency). I hadn't thought of them as helping my electrolytes in terms of rehydration. When you're eating a banana on its own, do you put salt on it (sorry if this is a stupid question!)? Are you using ordinary table salt?
     
  7. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    I thought this Wikipedia article was an interesting introduction to dehydration and electrolytes.

    And here's one on electrolytes in rehydration therapy (following severe dehydration due to diarrhoea, for example in cholera). It appears that glucose is necessary! :(
     
  8. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Avoid just drinking water. It flushes out your electrolytes. I.m only drinking about 3 glasses daily now. The rest of my fluids comes from my electrolyte smoothie.

    I finally figured this out because my urine tested positive for dehydration 5 weeks in a row and I was drinking about 10 glasses of water a day ... :eek: I was salt loading too.

    I couldn.t tolerate any of the electrolyte mixes, esp the nosalt, so I opted for bananas. Emergenc electrolyte tasted like alka seltzer to me so that was out. Nosalt sent my adrenals into a spin.

    I don.t salt my bananas yet ... I just eat something salty and I add salt to my smoothies.

    I use celtic sea salt, himalayan and sea salt w iodine ... Be Careful not to get too much iodine.

    That's the right thread. Sorry about not giving the link. I am using a tablet and can't do links on it yet.

    I.m glad you found the part about needing glucose to rehydrate properly. Was that in my dinet thread ? That.s critical info !!!

    Imho .. This is one of those things that should be in me/cfs 101 ... Our doctors aren't spelling it out for us so we.re missing this.

    Tc ... X
     
  9. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Forgot to say ... be sure to check the ingedients in gatorade, etc. The potassium is too low to help and they contain chemical that many of us can.t handle. Tc ...x
     
  10. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Hi X - yes, we need a basic article on how to do this! I'm all over the net trying to get the basics: what balance of what electrolytes, taken how, how much, taken when, argh...

    I wish one of the CFS doctors would write just a short guide for patients. So many of us without a specialist doctor but who could benefit from this basic thing.

    Bummer about the glucose! Yes, I think that was in that very useful dinet thread. And I had no clue that drinking loads of water was a bad thing. I've seen so much OI advice telling people to be sure to drink 2.5 litres a day.

    What is in your banana smoothies?
     
  11. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    The other problem with dysautonomia treatments is that they're only telling patients to salt load and drink more water... what a mess !! I salt loaded for 4 years only to find out I needed more electrolytes and LESS water .. : ( .. Some docs are recommending 8 grams of sodium a day too. I can only imagine how that's going to turn out ...

    Actually knowing that glucose is critical for us absorb these nutrients in our guts was great info ... I found the rehydration therapy info very interesting ...

    I'm on a smoothie / detox kick so right now my smoothies have water, 1/4 cup fresh cilantro (detoxes mercury), 1/4 cup parsley, 1/2 pkg of frozen pure pomegranate juice (can't remember brand name but mine doesn't have soy), 1/2 banana, tbsp key lime juice, konsyl and 1/4 tsp salt ... I'm making this in a 16 oz blender so i'm using however much water it takes.

    I have an organic rice protein powder by nutribiotic on order but am still waiting for it. I used 1/2 pkg of that a couple of times and liked the taste. I'm just experimenting with this tho. I've never done with protein powders ...

    I'm still a little hypoglycemic so I need to keep my sugars in balance by eating some nuts or other proteins with my sugars.

    BTW. my chronic hypoglycemia from hyperinsulinemia appears to have been linked to my caffeine usage. I'm not reacting as strongly to sugars as I used too ... I think this info is in my caffeine thread .. if not google hyperinsulinemia and caffeine ... this isn't new info to researchers just me and probably 9/10 of the population ... lol

    The problem I see with taking supplements is that you don't know what's in your diet that may be affecting the outcome. Not to mention that foods contain bioavailable nutrients ... I seem to feel better with foods ...

    tc ... x
     
  12. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    That's true about the salt loading - I've seen loads of things telling patients to increase their salt intake in food and drink loads of water. I really must study this!

    Thanks again for the info, X!
     
  13. LaurelW

    LaurelW Senior Member

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    Somebody posted this recipe to make your own electrolyte drink last year. For each cup of water, you put in 1/8 teaspoon sea salt, 1/8 teaspoon no-salt (potassium chloride), your sweetener of choice to taste (I use stevia) and some lime juice. It makes a nice, cheap gatorade replacement without all the high-glycemic sweetening. I drink a quart of this just before I have to be upright for a couple of hours, and it really helps.

    Thanks for all the info in this thread, I was wondering why just drinking more water doesn't seem to help with my OI.
     
  14. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    In this paper about treating OI, the authors say:


    Rapidly drinking two 8-oz (500 ml) glasses of cold water helps expand plasma volume. It also, within a few minutes, elicits a significant pressor effect that is in part norepinephrine mediated, increasing the standing systolic blood pressure by more than 20mm Hg for about 2 hours and improving symptoms and orthostatic endurance. This easy technique can be used when prolonged standing is expected (e.g. shopping).​


    This other paper about the pressor response says that people with OI can exploit this effect first thing in the morning when OI symptoms tend to be worse but warns that in some people, water drinking increases systolic blood pressure by over 100mm Hg, which can result in dangerously high blood pressure when lying down.

    So the recommendation about drinking water first thing for OI doesn't seem to be about rehydration, it seems to be about this pressor response. In this study, a control group got equal hydration via an IV and the mean increase in BP was only 18mm Hg (+/-14mm so could have been near zero), much lower than the 52 mm Hg for the drinking group (+/-2mm so reliably high).

    Another thing I didn't know! Presumably you could kill two birds with one stone and use an electrolyte drink first thing to get both the electrolyte effect and the pressor effect to get your BP and hydration up. I think Dr Klimas and many others recommend this.
     
  15. AndrewB

    AndrewB Senior Member

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    the sachets ive got contain potassium and salts.
    ive got to mix them with 7 oz of water, apprently any more or less per sachet messes up the electrlyte ratio.
    i was going to make two sachets of 14 oz and drink that at once, but i wasnt sure if that was ok bacause of
    it containing potassium (something which im low on now and then in blood tests anyway), as im aware too
    much potassium is also bad for the body.
    im going to google how much potassium is okay to consume in one day, and see if i can have the two sachet drink.
     
  16. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    I didn.t do well with nosalt. It stressed me out. I've been calm most of the time for several years now so I notice anything that interfers with this. Food intolerances, inc chemicals, were keeping me wired. B12 and b6 or p5p do too. I just started taking b6 and that.s probably why I.m up at 4 am ...

    I'm looking at ways to resolve dehydration not treating it all the time but I just started looking. So far I.ve found hypovolemia, hyperinsulinemia and dehydration can be related. I'm also looking at acidosis and electrolytes. I.ve been too busy to really get into this tho and most of this is new to me. I.m an ex computer programmer analyst so I missed out on science ...

    But Obviously if you.re urinating frequently you're losing nutrients. Taking Azo w probiotics for a couple of months took care of my frequent urination problem. If this symptom comes back, I just take it again for a day or two. Women get utis easily.

    Andrew,

    I found that I need to eat 1/2 of a banana throughout the day to feel the benefits.
     
  17. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    I don't know about the sachets but potassium tablets only contain 99mg which is 3% of the Daily Value. So you'd have to consume an awful lot of it in order to overdose.
     
  18. Tony Mach

    Tony Mach Show me the evidence.

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    Well, the body takes up the electrolytes (and water), so the 20 minutes isn't surprising. I would suspect two things happen:

    1. The electrolytes you take are increased in the blood (doh! :D). If you don't have enough of some (or too much of other electrolytes!), the temporary increasing the electrolytes might help.

    2. Maybe the water volume of the blood is increased too? Not sure if this is the case, but if this is the case, then I would suspect that it helps the blood pressure.

    The basic chain for electrolytes (and water) is as follows:

    Gut -> Blood -> Kidneys -> Bladder

    You can imagine as a wave going through these organs. Your drink hits the gut, the gut transports it into the blood and the kidneys transport it out again.

    The gut takes up the drink, increases the electrolytes (and water volume of the blood). Now the kidneys (and autonomous nervous system?) see that there is "too much" of something and start to push it out again. I would reckon, that as long as the kidneys haven't lowered the level, you have temporarily too much of something and that helps the cells temporarily.

    If it is the water, then I would suspect blood pressure problems.

    If it is the electrolytes, you could have too low of these that are in the drink or you could have too much of others. All the cells "pump" electrolytes from the blood into the inside of the cell (and other electrolytes out). The bigger the difference between the outside (high in the blood) and the inside (low in the cell), the easier it is to pump the electrolytes into the cell.

    But there are others, like the "sodium-potassium pump". It pumps potassium from the blood into the cell and at the same time sodium out. I would suspect having high sodium level in the blood would make it hard to pump sodium out of the cell and therefore hard to pump potassium into the cell. So, in a word: It is difficult
     

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