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EGCG - what's not to love?

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by adreno, Mar 9, 2015.

  1. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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  2. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Green tea extract makes me anxious and overstimulated, I am guessing due to COMT inhibition. I am COMT +/-. Perhaps those who are -/- would do better on this.
     
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  3. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    It was contra indicated on my nutra hacker report so I wouldn't try it... as well as querticin, curcumin, which I really wanted to try also. I have enough supplements I can't tolerate so no point in buying more. Wish the manufacturers did sampler packs.
     
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  4. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    I am interested in trying it, but still haven't done it.
    Green tea doesn't bother me so this may be one of those supplements that I don't have to throw in the garbage bin after the first capsule :)
     
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  5. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    High dose lowers testosterone, at least in meeces.
     
  6. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    EGCG, yes, you have to love it.

    http://iospress.metapress.com/content/y38l45u118447510/

    I have the green tea extract, so it's not just the EGCG. I don't take it consistently because I usually just drink green tea. But I think I'll start adding some of the extract to my tea and use just the extract in the evenings because it's very low in caffeine.

    The EGCG chelates iron ions, and the quercetin and other polyphenols chelate copper ions. This is very helpful if you have Lyme or one of the coinfections.
     
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  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    :bulb::trophy::star:
     
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  8. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    It's funny, I was just looking into the T-regulatory effects of EGCG. Since I believe I'm dealing with antiphospholipid antibodies, and my TH2 and TH17 is way outta balance I need to increase t-regs.

    I was looking at this as well:

    http://selfhacked.com/2014/11/11/treg/
     
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  9. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    How do you know this?

    According to this, we should not try to increase T regs:


    And we should not take EGCG, as this increases T regs.
    @Marco , @alex3619 , any help? I don't know enough immunology to evaluate this information...
     
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  10. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I'm basing that partly on: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22941119

    "The results revealed that aPLs at higher concentrations may induce a significant increase in Th2 and Th17 frequencies, as opposed to a significant decrease in Th1 and Treg frequencies and the Th1/Th2 ratio."

    Tregs may leave me vulnerable to infections, but It's basically the same effect as an immune modulator, which I think would be more hardcore.
     
  11. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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  12. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Several studies have found elevated Tregs in ME/CFS.
     
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  13. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Then my next question would be: was this ><3 years duration? Perhaps duration matters?
     
  14. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Good question, Adreno. I don't know. I think in light of the new Lipkin/Hornig findings we'll need to reappraise all immunological data gathered previously.
     
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  15. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Yes, if the Lipkin/Hornig finding turns out to be robust and replicable, which I expect it will be, then all prior studies, with perhaps some exceptions due to study design, need to be re-evaluated.

    Studies which used appropriate methodology (and testing on whole blood versus isolated cells seems to matter) and focused on recent patients might be OK, as well as those that focus on long term patients. Its the mixed cohorts that are an issue ... they will have hugely heterogeneous results, where the highs and lows will often cancel each other out and look normal. In other words, its about subgroups.

    We also know that some of these factors (e.g. cytokines) turn out to be compartmentalized. In the skin, brain etc. the results may differ from what is in blood. Its blood tests that are not reliable. The are a time averaged window on what makes it to the general circulation.

    There is also another issue. Is any one of these factors a cause or an appropriate adaptive response? If its causal then treating it is good. If its an inappropriate adaptive response its hard to say what treating it will do. If its an appropriate adaptive response then treating it could be problematic. Worse, it might simultaneously be partially causal and appropriately and inappropriately adaptive.

    I don't know enough about green tea extracts, and in particular egcg to comment specifically, and I too busy right now to investigate. I do know that on occasion green tea extracts have had disastrous impact on health, but that generally its helpful. A lot depends, I think, on the individual patient biochemistry, and we vary quite a bit.
     
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  16. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    I wasn't thinking of EGCG specifically, but more generally about Tregs in relation to ME/SEID, but I think you answered that, too.

    We just don't know at this time, whether increasing or decreasing Tregs is a good idea.

    Immunosenescence, as Hornig suggested, is likely characterized by higher levels of Tregs and weaker immune response. Higher Tregs seems to increase chance of cancer, and this is more prevalent in old age (immunosenescence) as well.

    So from the looks of it, a cautious guess would be that long duration patients need a stronger immune response, not weaker. But it is still unclear to me how Tregs fit together with autoantibodies and microglial priming. Many patients also report problems with mast cells and allergies, which would point to hyperimmunity.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2015
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  17. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I sometimes find that taking EGCG 300 mg quickly boosts my mood (possibly by EGCG's ability to increase dopamine by inhibiting the reuptake of dopamine), and has some beneficial effects on my brain fog as well.

    However, there always seems to be a comedown in my elevated mood later in the day, that feels similar to a caffeine comedown. Not sure why.


    Note that EGCG has an anti-folate action: EGCG inhibits the enzyme dihydrofolate reductase (DHFR). DHFR converts dihydrofolate and folic acid into tetrahydrofolate.

    DHFR also recycles BH2 back to BH4 (tetrahydrobiopterin).
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
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  18. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    So I finally tried it, and just like you I found it way too stimulating, in a very unpleasant way. I'm also COMT +/-.

    I guess I'll stick with turmeric. Sigh.
     
  19. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Sorry to hear. I've just started turmeric and early indications are good.
     
  20. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Yes I was. The cyrex #5 assay showed positive for them. However, you need multiple positives to confirm.
     

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