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[Efficacy and safety of noophen in treatment of CFS in patients with cerebrovascular insufficiency]

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Murph, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    mitragyine , the main active component of kratom, is shown to be an opioid agonist. So if you're gonna claim that it's not at all endocrine dysruptive or histaminic, you'd have to show that delta opioid agonism differs that significantly from mu opioid agonism
     
  2. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425236/



    full article:

    There were studies performed to observe the effect of mitragynine several years ago.8,9 The acute toxicities studied in rats include increasing blood pressure, hepatotoxicity, and nephrotoxicity.10 In another rat study, it was found that the aqueous extract, even very high dose, did not cause death and any significant toxicity.11 In humans, the adverse effects or the toxicities include dry mouth, changes in urination, nausea, vomiting, anorexia, weight loss, constipation, nystagmus, and tremor.4,12 In addition, seizure has been reported in previous literature.5,13,14 Primary hypothyroidism15 and intrahepatic cholestasis16 are also reported in a number of cases to be associated with Kratom. For chronic toxicity, impairment of cognitive behavioral function is found in mice fed mitragynine for a long period.17 In humans, anorexia, weight loss, hyperpigmentation, and psychosis are described in chronic abusers.4Kratom alone, or in combination with other substances, has been shown to cause dependence and withdrawal symptoms following repeated consumption.2,1821 Kratom has the potential herb–drug interaction on cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzyme activity. This was shown in one study, with potent inhibitory effect for CYP3A4 and CYP2D6, moderate effect for CYP1A2, and weak effect for CYP2C19,22 whereas in another study, mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine also showed the inhibitory effect on P-glycoprotein.23 However, there were a few reports of Kratom-related fatalities.24,25
     
  3. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    The blood pressure and pulse rate of every subject increased at the 8th hour of study and then returned to normal, as shown in Figures 5 and and6.6. Capillary blood glucose levels were normal during the period of the study. All subjects described tongue numbness after they finished drinking Kratom tea. No abnormal signs and symptoms were detected during this period of the study.



    (to me, this indicates some interesting adrenal effects of mitragynine, not a normal effect of an opioid)
     
  4. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    a quote from a member on a drug forum, below:

    "
    I actually get bloodwork done once in awhile since I am a body builder, and typically go through different cycles of supplements/prohormones/steroids. In the one instance I was talking about, I can post the results. I was taking D-aspartic acid and a anti-estrogen supplement, and was doing a log for a company. I did blood work before and after. Then 3 weeks later, I did more blood work and it was during this time that I picked up some UEI kratom (12 grams worth) and started to take it daily.

    Free Test = 26.5 picogram/mL
    Total Testosterone = 768 nanograms/dL

    The kratom lasted roughly 10 days for me, but on the 9th day, I was going to log another supplement review, and received more bloodwork to lay out what my levels would be previous to starting that cycle

    Free Test = 22.3 picogram/mL
    Total Testosterone = 613 nanograms/dL

    I wasn't on any other supplements during this time besides Fish oil, creatine, and protein. And I was going to the gym as I normally do.

    That is where I drew the conclusion that kratom had some sort of effect on my testosterone levels, and thus I never used it again."
     
  5. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    there's much, much more where that came from. I'm not saying anecdotal evidence is enough to prove something, and it shouldn't be enough to make something illegal. But we pay attention to anecdotal evidence in lots of ways when we have CFS and want to try something that another forum member has tried, I don't know why we'd ignore it in this case
     
  6. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    So, has anyone tried Kavinace?
     
  7. enduin

    enduin

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    @debored13

    I think you misunderstood me, and I think you might be a bit misinformed about some facts:

    - I believe that there is more than enough anecdotal evidence that kratom is perfectly safe for normal people.
    The article you quoted that talks about a bunch of side effects from kratom I don't believe to be very authoritative, considering that it still mentions the hyperpigmentation (in people who took kratom in Thailand) which has been clearly debunked by the fact that nobody of the hundreds of thousands taking kratom in the US and Europe ever got it. There is not much science when it comes to kratom and a lot of it unfortunately is not good science. But we, more than anybody, know how the medical world works. Things get repeated ad nauseam even when they originated from studies where gross mistakes were made.
    Now, whether or not it's safe for CFS people that's a complete different story! I would never claim that kratom is 100% safe for CFSers because honestly I don't think anything can be considered 100% safe when it comes to CFS.

    - mytraginine is definitely an agonist at delta receptors, but kratom doesn't just contain mytraginine. Kratom contains 17 other known alkaloids (and probably several unknown ones), which include some opioid ANTAGONISTS (especially in the stems and vein). And it contains Rynchophilline which is the same alkaloid in Cat's Claw and it's known to be a NMDA antagonist and calcium channel blocker. There were even some talk somewhere of some alkaloids in kratom having some beta-adrenergic antagonism. So while yes mytraginine is a delta agonist, it's not that simple. There's a lot more going on.

    - I'm also not saying that there are no side effects from kratom ever. For example there are definitely some histaminergic effects (itching, etc), I experienced that myself, BUT that requires either the use of an concentrated extract OR taking a massive dose of the plain leaf and somehow manage to not throw up (which is what generally happens when you take too much of the plain leaf). I never heard of anybody getting the itches from a normal dose of plain leaf. When you read about reports of people taking kratom you need to know all the factors, especially how much they take. Of course there are going to be some side effects for people who take 20-30g per day. So, sure, at some high doses kratom might have an anti-androgenic effect, or cause other issues. But that's not the point. Just because people end up at the ER after taking too many caffeine pills or Red Bull doesn't mean that we can conclude that coffee or tea will give you a heart attack.

    - the post that you quote about the bodybuilder testing his testosterone tells me you might be a bit misinformed, let me explain why. The guy was taking UEI or Ultra Enhanced Indo. UEI was a product that was around 10 years ago and it was supposedly made by "enhancing" some Indo kratom with a special 250x extract. UEI was always a bit shady because this 250x extract was only made by one person, and it was never known how he made it or what it contained. What is known is that UEI was very strong, it caused tolerance to skyrocket, and it was quite addictive. After taking UEI, people who find that plain leaf kratom would no longer work (which is the same thing that happens after taking a real opiate and then take kratom), and then they had to keep raising their doses of UEI. Lots of people got addicted to UEI and got in trouble. At this point you can tell that UEI was working like a classic opiate and was nothing like kratom. I actually tried UEI once back in the day out of curiosity, and it felt nothing like kratom. Personally, I have a hunch that UEI contained some kind of synthetic opioid agonist.
    So, this is to say that if someone says that UEI has an anti-androgenic effect, I totally believe it. It probably will have a bunch of other side effects too, but UEI is NOT kratom.

    - last thing, which also in a way responds to a previous post from another person. There are a lot of plants that are perfectly safe in their natural form, but if you isolate one of the active chemicals and use that alone, all bets are off!
    Isolating an "active chemical" from a plant presents quite a few problems, first that you end up losing other chemicals that might not be as active, but could provide a synergistic effect or a balancing effect. Additionally, by isolating a chemical, you allow for an intake of that chemical that is several orders of magnitude greater than what could be consumed in the natural form.
    I'm not saying that it's always bad to isolate chemicals from plants (would would not have things like penicillin otherwise), but doing that requires starting from scratch in determining the efficacy and safety of the isolate.
    Also, in the case of kratom, it's my opinion that concentrating it in extracts or isolating alkaloids like mytraginine is a really terrible idea. Not only because when you do that, there is no way to know if it's still safe (kratom has been used for thousands of years in leaf form, not extracts or isolates), but also because you end up losing what makes kratom great in the first place. Which is to provide a plethora or positive effects, including pain relief, without the risks of harm or addiction like classic opiates. If you isolate the mytraginine, you end up with just another opioid agonist with all the problems that go along with that.
     
    Kenshin likes this.
  8. panckage

    panckage Senior Member

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    This thread has nothing to do with kratom. Please take the off topic comments to a relevant thread
     
  9. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I did, a long time ago.

    I greatly dislike brands like this and their "proprietary" formulas.

    I also would urge extreme caution with phenibut. I don't think it is safe taken daily and tolerance builds quickly.
     
    Kenshin likes this.
  10. jaybee00

    jaybee00 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Dosage was 1000 mg/day BD. I'm attaching the file. Can anyone who reads Russian check to see if this study was blinded?

    Thank you
     

    Attached Files:

    panckage likes this.
  11. panckage

    panckage Senior Member

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    Wow 1000mg a day is a high dose. I can't imagine that would work long term. Anecdotally I can dose that much once every three days without tolerance/withdrawal/etc (there may be a small amount but since my symptoms are so variable its hard to be sure) while someone else has reported once every 2 days resulted in increasing tolerance but found like me once every 3 days in maintainable.
     

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