Edward Shorter reviews SO'S book It's All in your Head

[Wildcat]

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Coyne is not directly challenging the PACE Trial. He is not involved in the FOI case, has never placed an FOI in relation to PACE.
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Coyne is not a signatory to the Joint letter to the Lancet
http://www.virology.ws/2016/02/10/open-letter-lancet-again/
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Coyne has sought to get Plos to insist on the release of data from the later PACE Economic Analysis paper, under Plos policy, and has threatened to resign as a (one of very many) PLoS ONE Editor if Plos do not insist that the Economic Analysis paper authors release that data
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So far Plos have ignored Coyne's request. That is not at all surprising because Coyne insisting that Plos 'do XYZ or Coyne will resign as an editor' is a long standing behaviour pattern of his. Coyne has done it before many times, so to PLoS it looks like Coyne is simply crying wolf.
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As here in 2013 in Coyne's 'Mind the Brain' blog on Plos:

http://blogs.plos.org/mindthebrain/...-one-article-about-homeopathy-for-depression/
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Comments:
A. Tasso (speaking to Coyne):
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October 2, 2013 at 9:32 pm
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"You really need to stop with the incessant “I’m going to resign as PLoS ONE editor” threats and whininess. Is that the only intervention you feel like you have at your disposal, and/or do you really see yourself as so important that your resignation would be such a major event? “My appeal got rejected, so I’m going to resign”. “If PLoS keeps publishing XYZ I’m going to resign”. “If PLoS doesn’t implement indexed comments I’m going to resign”. etc etc. These detract from the otherwise intelligent commenting that you provide."

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[Dx Revision Watch]

Quoting Shorter:

"She [O’Sullivan] ends up referring many of them to a “psychiatrist.” This is the most useless referral imaginable, as psychiatrists shun and fear psychosomatic patients and can usually do little for them because the patients themselves reject the whole notion of “psychogenesis”; patients usually accept such referrals only with the greatest reservation, convinced – not entirely incorrectly – that they are being turfed."

Shorter then goes on to say (my emphasis):

"The general internist, the rheumatologist, or another neurologist should be the physicians of reference, because only they are able to build the necessary therapeutic alliance, to keep the myth of organicity semi-intact. It is this myth that patients require to retain their self-respect, while the real therapy takes places in the context of the doctor-patient relationship. What actually works is spending a lot of time with these patients and letting them tell and, if necessary, retell their stories. This is cathartic. But it is advice that is most unwelcome to many clinicians because it takes so much time."

 

[Valentijn]

I can't agree with turning a blind eye to abusive behaviour, whether carried out on public platforms like Facebook or via PM or email. It's tantamount to sanctioning.

So the solution is to declare a permanent grudge and oppose everything he does, when he goes overboard in calling out someone for being a brat on Twitter? Yes, he should have apologized. And Jeanette and her troll supporters should have never ever gone there in the first place. I'm deeply disappointed by the behavior of both sides, and I don't see how continuously dredging it up is even remotely productive. In fact, it's exactly the sort of irrational pettiness which make us look as unbalanced and militant as Shorter claims we are.

Scream as much as you want, but don't expect my support. I have no problem with mildly pointing out misconceptions, etc, but to continue to fight and fight and fight among ourselves is just insane. We have a common goal, maybe we can all try to behave like adults in attaining that goal. And when someone, Coyne, Jeanette, or anyone else, has a lapse and throws a fit like a toddler, maybe the rest of us can remember to behave like adults, set a good example, and encourage the tantrum-throwers to do the same.

Coyne has sought to get Plos to insist on the release of data from the later PACE Economic Analysis paper, under Plos policy, and has threatened to resign as a (one of very many) Plos Editor if Plos do not insist that the Economic Analysis paper authors release that data

You'd prefer he did nothing at all? He's getting attention for PACE and the poor state of ME research to a much larger audience that we could do ourselves.

 

[Dx Revision Watch]

You'd prefer he did nothing at all? He's getting attention for PACE and the poor state of ME research to a much larger audience that we could do ourselves.

Whilst throwing long-term advocates under the bus?

 

[Valentijn]

Whilst throwing long-term advocates under the bus?

Sorry, did I miss the memo where we're required to give advocates a free pass when they act like spoiled children and attack each other?

 

[Dx Revision Watch]

So the solution is to declare a permanent grudge and oppose everything he does...

You are straw manning.

Scream as much as you want, but don't expect my support.

Not "screaming".
Not seeking your support.

 

[Dx Revision Watch]

Sorry, did I miss the memo where we're required to give advocates a free pass when they act like spoiled children and attack each other?

Whatever your opinions are about Jeannette and what took place publicly. Coyne was also abusive to advocates who had been assisting him back channel with background materials. That is not acceptable, either.

 

[Valentijn]

Whatever your opinions are about Jeannette and what took place publicly. Coyne was also abusive to advocates who had been assisting him back channel with background materials. That is not acceptable, either.

You're right, it's not acceptable. That's why I'm not supporting either party in their various bits of pettiness. But Coyne being wrong about something doesn't mean that 1) he's wrong about everything, or that 2) someone fighting with him is right about anything.

Better to stay out of the spats and set an example. Frankly, I'm sick to death of Jeanette v Coyne being dredged up every time someone mentions Coyne in a completely unrelated context. It serves no purpose whatsoever, except to create further division and distract from actual advocacy efforts.

 

[Ben H]

@Valentijn @Dx Revision Watch

I think both of you are making good points. We are on the same team after all.

I only mentioned Coyne and his past behaivour in relation to how I personally have a vote of no confidence in him now, do not know what to expect and hence how it related to his comments on the article. I am well over his outlandish behaivour, and agree with Valentjin that Jeanette's tweet was poorly chosen and not a help, despite what she has done before. I also agree that letting Coynes behaivour against the community go unchallenged is not acceptable, but it's HOW we respond that counts.

That time a few months ago, it was with dignity and grace (the majority) and I was very proud of the M.E community in reacting that way.

Like I say I only mentioned him as I really do not know what to expect from him anymore. He would be a good ally and the attention he has brought to PACE is great. But in the next instance I can see him causing another sh*tstorm.

I think it's wise to view him tentatively at best.


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[Dx Revision Watch]

...It serves no purpose whatsoever, except to create further division and distract from actual advocacy efforts.

If giving a platform to and promoting Shorter's books, blogs and commentaries (twice now) and then scapegoating patients for that decision isn't divisive and a distraction from advocacy efforts, I don't know what is.

 

[Hip]

Coyne was also abusive to advocates who had been assisting him back channel with background materials. That is not acceptable, either.

Would you have any links that detail this?

From what I have seen of Coyne's character, he's an iconoclast, and has the temperament that comes with it. Iconoclasm is rarely polite.

To say that this temperament is unacceptable is just a viewpoint, rather than some absolute measure of acceptability. I do have sympathy for the fracas Burmeister went through, though, because as many of us know, ME/CFS patients are much more emotionally sensitive to social discord (perhaps due to having dysfunctional hypothalami), and this type of emotional stress can hit us hard.

However, personally, I am willing to accept some rough edges and a quick-fire temperament if this rocks the boat, because the boat needs a very good rocking.

On these forums, you generally find that the level of vitriol against people like for example Simon Wessely, or journalists that we feel to not accurately portray ME/CFS, is higher than anything Coyne has Tweeted. So we cannot claim to be paragons of equanimity either (and long may it continue).

 

[Wildcat]

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https://thoughtsaboutme.com/2016/02/29/has-the-coyne-of-the-realm-been-devalued/

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It has been reported to me that Coyne had a private-message exchange on Facebook on the evening of February 27th with a patient who had been providing him, for months, with amounts of quite rare documentation about UK ME-related matters, including the Lightning Process and the SMILE Trial. The patient relayed to me that, on a number of occasions, the patient urgently messaged Coyne to correct his factually incorrect online statements.

The patient notes that all the exchanges with Coyne up until that time had been perfectly pleasant and straightforward, concentrating on the documents. But on that evening, the messages from Coyne became suddenly abusive.

The patient has graciously given me permission to reproduce Coyne’s verbally abusive private Facebook messages. The first FB PM from Coyne to the patient in that thread appeared to be some kind of ultimatum relating to my Tweet to Francis Collins. The patient feels that Coyne took his anger out on her because he didn’t have the courage to confront me, because both my husband and I and many of our friends are attorneys. Here are some of the Facebook PM exchanges:

Coyne: “This is absolutely unacceptable trolling and harassing of the head of NIH. If something is not done about it, I am withdrawing form the struggle.” [Reproduced Jeanette’s Tweet to Francis Collins]

Patient “Err? I don’t control what Jeanette Burmeister Tweets, or who to. As far as I can see there was one tweet. She is a lawyer who won an FOI case (below)”

[The patient gave links to my blog posts on the NIH and HHS FOIA case.]

Coyne: “I do, when it is to the Head of NIH and I am prepared to tell the patient community collectively to fuck off.”

Patient: “Charming. I have always been civil to you James. As you can see there is definite history between the NIH and Jeanette.”

Coyne: “I don’t give a fuck. If the community cannot do better, they can fuck themselves.”

Patient: “I want you to stop sending me such messages, and to stop swearing in private messages to me. Go take your anger out elsewhere. I don’t tweet. I am too sick to take on another online system. Too many of us are very lucky to be still alive. If my doctors and fellow citizens had had their way in the years of very severe ME, I would be six feet under twice over.”


Patient: “Err – have you sent such messages with swearing to Jeanette Burmeister? Or just to me?

After all – its not as though Jeanette has told Francis Collins what you have just told me – ie if he can’t do better he can fuck himself.

She has been more civil to Francis Collins than you are being to me.”

Coyne: “fuck off, you are wasting my time.”

Patient: “Apologise James. Your communications to me tonight are are appalling and frankly abusive. Have you messaged anyone else with such abusive statements? Or is it just me, who has never been rude or offensive to you.”

Coyne: “I really don’t care what the community thinks, they have totally undermine all my hard work.”

Patient: “Don’t message me again. You have been rude and abusive in these messages beyond the call of anything.

I don’t care how angry you are. You don’t speak to me that way. You are out of order taking out your anger on me about a tweet by Jeanette Burmeister.

I ask you again, have you sent similar messages to Jeanette as well, or anyone else in the ME community tonight – or is it just me you feel free to be verbally abusive to tonight ?”

Coyne: “Let’s not talk to each other no, I didn’t write to her. But you don’t get what I’m saying”

Patient: “So, you decided to take your anger out on me. But you didn’t have the guts to write the same messages to Jeanette, who has a high profile blog and is a lawyer.

I got exactly what you were saying James. you were repeating fuck off in private messages to me.”


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[Wildcat]

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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/719550381391523840

 

[Wildcat]

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James Coyne's grotesque behaviour is not all towards Jeannette - he has spread his abuse around, all in the course of trying to control patient advocate actions and online statements.
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Personally I am sick of hearing excuses for him.
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[Wildcat]

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Hip wrote: "On these forums, you generally find that the level of vitriol against people like for example Simon Wessely, or journalists that we feel to not accurately portray ME/CFS, is higher than anything Coyne has Tweeted."
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Are you quite sure about that? Posts of the abusive nature of what Coyne writes would not go long unmoderated.
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[Wildcat]

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Hip wote: ..."ME/CFS patients are much more emotionally sensitive to social discord...."
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What Coyne does is not 'social discord' - its verbal abuse and defamation. The 'you are sensitive' argument/excuse for his behaviour just does not stand up.
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Additional edit:
All of the advocates whom Coyne attacked are very experienced, very informed and very astute.
They are all well experienced in defending their views in online environments, in 'hot' 'robust' debates.
They held their own and were civil but firm in response to Coyne. He just continued being verbally abusive.

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Members of the ME community are not the first people to be targetted by Coyne in such an uncivil manner. Its looking increasingly likely that his value to our community is less than we at first thought, due to his pre-existing reputation as a hothead, and his persistent verbally abusive public behaviour, in this instance against patients/advocates, but also repeatedly against other professionals ( who are not impressed).
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[Living Dead]

Now that was certainly showing "the other side of the Coyne".

Has James Coyne ever clearly and unambiguously stated that he thinks ME/CFS is a somatic illness?

 

[Hip]

Thanks for posting those dialogues, @Wildcat and @Dx Revision Watch.

I am not excusing his behavior; it's his character. Remember character? That human phenomenon that political correctness and "safe spaces" wants to homogenize and pasteurize.

In many ways political correctness is a good thing; but as a result of this safe and homogenized environment, people are no longer exposed to the emotional turbulence of a lost temper, or the deployment of emotionally expressive phrases like "go fuck yourself," which are often actually laden with both humanity and humor.

With that lack of exposure, people become thinner skinned, and are no longer able to cope with strong human emotion. Moreover, they eventually may no longer be able to understand passionate human emotional expression at all.

For those old enough to remember the decades before political correctness and "safe spaces," the proper response to Coyne would be something like: "Coyne, go fuck yourself, you supercilious fuckwit!" I am sure he would actually appreciate and respect such as response; and it would also show you have a bit of spice and "attitude" and charisma in you.



When I first became ill with ME/CFS 10 years ago, and wanted to learn more about biochemistry, PR did not exist, and I cut my teeth on a bodybuilding forum called the Mind and Muscle forum, where there were some very biochemically knowledgable people.

The culture of that forum was like locker room talk: if someone said something scientifically silly, you straight out called them a moron. Needless to say, with that locker room culture, I learnt quite fast to ensure my posts were scientifically accurate!

When I later started posting on PR, it was something of a cultural change to take on board, since around here, calling other members "morons," even if done affectionally, is not allowed. (Among my friends, such insults were often dished out affectionally — and even as a term of endearment — when I was growing up; but this mode of expression is no longer understood by the safe space generation, like a dying language.)

I think the culture of PR is a good thing, but I do sometimes miss these letting-off-steam modes of expression facilitated by the use of words like "twit," "idiot" and "moron."

Fortunately, I am still able to use such words in real life, face to face, and as anyone out of my family and friends will tell you: if you want to hear a string of vitriolic expletives pass my lips, just try telling me that ME/CFS is psychologically-caused!

 

[Wildcat]

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@Hip Objecting to Coyne's public defamation of individual ME advocates and his aggressive behaviour, has nothing to do with political correctness.
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Its not about objecting to swearing in general. The advocates whom Coyne sets upon are not wilting violets who become faint at the sound of a F***.
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Coynes expletives were in the context of his aggressive attempts to control patient/advocates views and statements.
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Again, the arguments that 'Its just Coyne's character' ... and 'Coyne's targets are just too thin skinned' sound like making excuses for him, and locating 'the problem' in the people he attacked.
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Additional Edit ... Coyne's aggression was not 'laden with humour', or part of locker room banter.
It was not the humourous/friendly use of "Shut the F*** Up". It went hand in hand with defamation and attempted control of views, statements and discourse, and the attempted silencing of his targets.
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[Wildcat]

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Coyne now appears to have resorted to passive aggression against the Entire ME 'community' by promoting and praising Edward Shorter's Blog review of Suzanne O'Sullivan's book on psychosomatosis, whilst praising long term ME psychologiser and ME basher Shorter.
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So readers of Coyne's high profile blog, who read his crtiticisms of Pace, also read his praise of ME psychosomatiser Shorter. People, professionals too, who had never heard of Shorter, can go and read Shorters views on ME themselves. In fact Shorter believes ME is a cultural phenomenon which is spread 'culturally'; he was in informal partnership with Elaine Showalter in widely publicising those preposterous, and always derogatory, medically redundant views of ME and the patients.
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