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ME/CFS and Beating the Clock
For Jody Smith, the ticking of a clock was enough at one time to chase her back to her bed. But with the passage of time, she has been able to reclaim her living room ...
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  1. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Mike

    K, my doc says he actually alternates EDTA/DMPS weekly, with the Neural Therapy. Always keeping the EDTA and DMPS a week apart. Didn't know he was using EDTA as well.

    Thanks
    Mike

    mOJoey

    for the clarification. So since you said you average out to 2 NT injections/week it's usually 1 NT+chelator, then 1 NT+homeopathic?

    Or does he sometimes combined the procaine with DMPS/EDTA and homeopathic all together?

    best,
    joey
    __________________
  2. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Angel on EDTA

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    Angel

    I did the EDTA IV's several years ago for high levels of mercury, arsenic, lead, nickel and cadmium. It was a tough year.

    One of my friends who also had the heavy metal poisoning didn't want to go the slower route of EDTA. She found someone to give her the DMPS and almost became suicidal because of the rapid detox. It laid her out for several weeks.

    I think I had 2 - 3 treatments a week and we retested every 10 treatments. It did make me depressed and very exhausted. Once out it took several months before I felt the improvement. Others had warned me that is what happened with them when they did the heavy metal detox.

    I am glad I did it.
    __________________
    Angel
  3. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Mike Dessin on EDTA

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    Mike

    Thank You for sharing that information. Yes, DMPS, EDTA, GHS, ALA, B-12 and any other type of IV's that lift toxins off the cells can be VERY hard to tolerate, even dangerous for some. As the extreme rise and fall of the chelator levels can leave toxins redistributed throughout the body.

    If one is to go this route,(IV) I would suggest doing very low amounts of the chelator. Really being as safe as possible. Once doing it though, keep going for several months of IV's until the toxins are out. Don't give the toxins time to settle throughout the nervous system.

    Most normal folks can handle any amount of these IV's, thats why they are normal, we on the other hand have major difficulties due to toxic burden and detoxification issues. Many doctors have a hard time understanding that we have these issues.

    A major advantage of IV's, the chelator can get deep into the tissues, which we need.

    Once we start getting the poisons out, it's also VERY important to start replenishing the brain/nervous system with FAT, so we can rebuild. All sorts of fat from fish oils, flax seed, olive oils, body bio oils, avocados, Salmon, nitrate free bacon, sun flower and so on.

    I actually did lipid IV's, to get as much new fat into my tissues as possible.

    Looks like your persistence is paying off!!
  4. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    JenBooks on

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    JenBooks

    I am sure I couldn't tolerate those IV's. I did two DMSA pills 15 years ago, 50 mg each, and by the second had kidney aches, so I left off that. That means the small amount of distribution I experienced bothered my kidneys.

    That's why I'd love to know Mike if your doc is using very tiny doses of these neural/chelator injections. Is that stimulating detox?
  5. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Angel on chelation

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    Angel

    Hi MIchael:

    I was fortunate that the clinic specialized in IV therapy and they were very careful with the speed of things and also monitoring. I remember a lot of testing to watch the kidneys so that they didn't get into trouble.

    Every 10 chelating IV's I did a 24 hour urine test to recheck the levels of the heavy metals. That way, when the metal was out I was done with the treatments and didn't keep treating needlessly putting a strain on my body.

    I drank a lot of water with lemon every day throughout that time, especially on the days of treatment to flush out the toxins that had been released.

    My fatigue level was pretty extreme before I began the treatment, and it only increased during the treatment. I would get in the car, put my headset on and call my MOm or my daughters to talk to me on the way home to keep me awake.

    On the way to treatment I used to stop about 10 min before reaching the clinic and go into McDonalds as a method of staying awake, and using the restroom before I got to the clinic.

    I would go in and sit down in the stall and within 5 seconds I was sleeping. That's tired.

    I have never had that level of fatigue again, and once the metals were out, I did gain more energy so that I was able to do more each day without having to nap for most of it.

    In 1997 I had all mercury amalgams removed from my teeth. I mistakenly believed that doing that removed all mercury from my body. I did the heavy metal testing and removal in 2003 or 2004. Heavy metals are in the tissues of the body.

    I had gotten very sick shortly before the chelating when I took a series of allergy shots to deal with new allergies in Florida.

    I had done 20 chelation treatments in 1997 before I had the amalgams removed. I did them because I knew I had chronic fatigue, but no one knew what caused it or what to do about getting rid of it. Chelation was my shot in the dark at getting better. I felt as if it had to be related to toxins, and having lived on a farm for 20 years, and working with animals, (dipping them for fleas etc) and chemicals, I thought if I could remove some of them, maybe I'd be better.

    It did make a huge difference and I did feel better for awhile. I wonder how many heavy metals I had in my body before those 20 treatments, as that Doctor in that state didn't test for mercury or lead etc.

    The result of those 20 treatments in South Dakota was that my allergies of 15 years totally disappeared. For the first time I didn't have to take allergy medication from April through November when we had the first heavy frost. (do Canadians have a frost in Aug??? so sorry)

    After I moved to Florida I found I had some allergies to a few things down here and decided to go after them with allergy shots. My guess is that they had mercury as a preservative and it was enough to push me over the edge again.

    In my decreased state of health, I also developed some allergies to some foods including eggs and shrimp.

    After I completed the heavy metal removal with chelation, we tested for food allergies again with a blood test, and I was no longer allergic to any foods.

    No wonder I felt better...
    __________________
  6. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Janis B on Detox

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    Janis B

    That's why I'd love to know Mike if your doc is using very tiny doses of these neural/chelator injections. Is that stimulating detox?
    I'm not Mike... but I wanted to add that I got kidney aches from the heparin shots and didn't understand (at the time) what was going on. Now I suspect the heparin was speeding up detox. I recently started biopterin (a precursor of BH4) and got the kidney aches again, but I found it I cut the capsule into 1/3, I could take a dose that didn't cause much aching. It seems to me that, if you ever do any kind of detox/chelation, you'll want to start with a much smaller dose.

    Andy Cutler (has a website on Hg detox) says a lot of people have problems with DMSA. He recommends DMPS. He also says that people have to push through frequent low dosing 3-4 times a day (even waking at night) or else the toxins redistribute.

    I never had the nerve to try it. Instead, I took oral Modifilan, then oral chlorella, butyrate, etc. My hair analysis is finally looking normal.
    Janis

    JenBooks

    I know what Andy Cutler says but I imagine frequent low doses would be frequent low dose redistribution...and I would never chance DMPS. I was interested in modifilan and am glad to hear you tolerated it. I could easily try that.

    Mike Ladies

    Angel..yes! it seems by removing the mercury a lot of problems do disappear, much of our body systems are dysfunctional due to mercury.

    I experienced so much fatigue also, from these treatments, started diminishing as my toxic load decreased. My sensitivities went away as well.

    Jenbooks..Yes, doc uses tiny doses of DMPS or EDTA with the neural therapy.
    However, neural therapy induces most of the detox, the DMPS simply helps clean the blood of those toxins once they are released.

    Be careful with Modifilan...That really was hard for me to handle, when I tried it. It's a tremendous chelator, and will move a lot of toxins. Start very low if you go that route. I too couldn't handle even 12mg of DMSA.

    Anything that can move toxins around, should be used with caution.

    Janis-- Hmm, just wanna give you a hug..lol

    Mike
  7. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    I don't see much about EDTA or other chelators here, so I thought I'd bump up this old post since some of these comments (especially Mike's) were kind of interesting to me.

    Over the past five years, I've done a really wide variety of things to free up detox. These have included methylation support (moving up to high-dose methyl B12 and Deplin), ALA, high-dose B6/zinc, juicing, frequent coffee enemas, saunas, homeopathy, cholestyramine, bentonite clay, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

    One thing I've never done is chelators though. I'm wondering if maybe that was a mistake.

    I started thinking about that because recently I tried adding a good bit of fresh cilantro juice to a couple of coffee enemas. This knocked me from being pretty much totally functional without doing much avoidance at all to being nearly catatonic.

    In reading about cilantro, it seems that it is a good mobilizer of metals but not a particularly good binder of them. So in thinking about this, I think it must have freed up a good bit of mercury.

    Maybe mercury is a bigger part of my illness than I sometimes give it credit for being. I had eight amalgam fillings in my mouth for nearly 20 years (removed safely in 1996 but still). Also, just prior to getting sick, I was eating a variety of fish almost daily and had a series of three Hepatitis B shots (undoubtedly full of mercury preservative).

    About four years ago, I had 5 mg of IV EDTA (a small amount) as a test. This brought the amount of mercury excreted in urine to 2x normal and made me feel very sick.

    Last winter, I used a drug to kill a tapeworm in my small intestine, and a huge amount of some kind of toxin was released. I imagined it must have been some kind of metal (it didn't feel like mold poison to me), which makes sense because tapeworms are known to sequester metals (e.g. they can have 500x the levels as are present in their fish hosts). Now I wonder if that was mercury too.

    So I'm thinking that working on mercury specifically may be a good thing for me. Whether I ever should try to mobilize any more with cilantro, I don't know. (And I wouldn't recommend cilantro juice enemas, especially to anyone who is not getting close to recovered status.) But at least getting out whatever is loose in my system seems like a good idea.

    So I've been thinking about EDTA, and in particular EDTA suppositories. Some people say that they are as effective as IV EDTA, but of course they are much less trouble and expensive.

    Does anyone have any thoughts about that?

    http://www.u-ok.net/chelation_chicago.html

    http://www.peak-health-now.com/EDTA-chelation-suppositories-reviews.html

    Thanks very much for any comments that folks might have.

    Best, Lisa
  8. tittiger

    tittiger

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  9. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Lisa.

    EDTA is not a very good binder of mercury. It is good for lead and for aluminum, for examples. It's important to use sodium calcium EDTA, and not disodium EDTA. The latter can deplete calcium and has caused some serious problems in the past. And, I recommend working with a physician who is familiar with chelation, such as one who is a member of ACAM, which specializes in chelation.

    Best regards;

    Rich
  10. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    Thanks Rich and Tittiger, I appreciate the information!
  11. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Anyone have any thoughts on whether EDTA would be good if you had high intracellular calcium?
  12. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    I was thinking along the same lines -- that I (and maybe CFS patients in general) seem to tend toward too much calcium rather than not enough, and thus that a supplement that depleted calcium a bit would not be of great concern (especially if it was one that I was taking infrequently).

    Also, here is a comment from the Medicardium people about the idea of the supplement depleting calcium. I don't know that I necessarily trust what they say, but it is interesting to hear them discuss it in light of Rich's comment on this topic.

    http://www.peak-health-now.com/medicardium-best-EDTA.html
  13. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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    I always read dmps is dangerous, and that Dmsa and Edta are better (although both get a wide range of toxic metals, Dmsa is better at getting mercury, and EDTA is better at getting lead, aluminum) (I use both dmsa and edta). I use one 1500 mg Edta suppository a week, because it is way cheaper than ivs.

    Btw I tested positive for arsenic "poisoning" a day after eating chinese food. Doctor said that was quite common and was unconcerned. But I cut out chinese food for sure.
  14. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    I tried the Medicardium EDTA suppositories and so far _really_ like them. They feel purely supportive to me right now, as if they are just mopping up "loose" toxins rather than mobilizing more toxins from storage spots. That cilantro enema mobilized an awfully lot!

    Apparently, 1 box is equal to 1-2 IV's. I've not yet finished one box yet. They suggest 15+ boxes. I wonder how many IV's people with this disease tend to need before they feel a difference.

    In re-reading the materials on this supplement, I noted the following:

    >Once the calcium has done its job, the cell has a 'calcium pump' that pushes the calcium out of the cell. The calcium can then go back to a place it belongs, such as the bones. As we age, the calcium pumps in our cells become less efficient. The cells have a harder and harder time pumping the used calcium out. Calcium starts to build up in all the places it does not belong....The magnesium/di-potassium EDTA in Medicardium first attaches to calcium, chelating it out of the soft tissues (including the blood). This shifts the calcium balance in the blood, making the body think it has too little calcium. The mechanism to store calcium is activated. This is exactly what we want...where does the body want to store the calcium removed from the organs and other soft tissues? IN THE BONES AND TEETH! The EDTA carrying the calcium lets go of the calcium when it bumps into heavier elements such as lead and mercury. The calcium dropped by the EDTA is grabbed by the body and put back in the bones and teeth where it belongs!


    This is interesting to me because I know that some biotoxins, such as ones made by a lot of aquatic microorganisms, interfere with the calcium pump (cause ion channelopathies), causing such symptoms as seizures and heart problems. And those can be problematic in CFS too.

    http://www.peak-health-now.com/medicardium-best-EDTA.html

    This supplement seems to have too much hyperbole attaching to it for me to trust that it is doing what it says. But it does seem like they're at least talking about some of the right things, and the fact that the supplement feels really good to me makes me a little more open-minded.

    Charles, have you used DMSA suppositories? What brand of EDTA suppositories (or DMSA if you use them) have you tried?

    FWIW, here are a couple more products from this company that have me curious:

    A suppository that supposedly does the work of a coffee enema.

    http://www.peak-health-now.com/xeneplex.html

    A product that supposedly cleans the gall bladder (and is supposedly useful for the "toxic sludge" that CFS and toxic patients get in their gall bladders).

    http://www.peak-health-now.com/glytamins.html

    Best, Lisa
  15. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

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    I use Detoxamin 1500mg Edta suppositories and have not tried dmsa suppositories.

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