Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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dymatize 100 whey

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by outdamnspot, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. outdamnspot

    outdamnspot Senior Member

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    I've read that a CFS specialist in Australia recommends this whey protein for PEM. Has anyone tried it? It's kind of expensive but I'm in a bad crash at the moment, so was considering getting it. Should it be okay to take if I can't tolerate dairy/lactose at all?
     
  2. Diwi9

    Diwi9 Senior Member

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    @outdamnspot - I don't know anything about the Australian CFS specialist, but I take whey protein as a convenient source of multiple amino acids...which supplementing with does help some PwME. If you are dairy intolerant, it might be an option to try a bone broth protein mix or plant-based protein mix and determine if amino acids help you.
     
  3. outdamnspot

    outdamnspot Senior Member

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    thanks, I believe that particular whey protein is recommended because it has the highest concentration of amino acids or something. The bone broth protein does look interesting, however, and might help my gut issues too ..
     
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  4. gregh286

    gregh286 Senior Member

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    yea whey is a good job in crash.
    body can burn amino as fuel alternatives.
    alcohol good fuel alternative also if you can tolerate
     
  5. outdamnspot

    outdamnspot Senior Member

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    what about whey and dairy intolerance, though?
     
  6. lafarfelue

    lafarfelue Senior Member

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    I use it and it works well for me. It's a hydrolysed type. They take a lot of the lactose out of it.

    I tend to use it when I'm feeling really fatigued and may be on the verge of a crash, and when I'm experiencing PEM. It boosts me physically and a little bit cognitively. Buuuuut I try to stay conscious keep activities down despite feeling like I have more energy/stamina.

    It is expensive but I find I don't blow through it with moderated use. I buy it through iHerb (we don't have the full US style Amazon in Australia, but I assume it's available more cheaply there).
     
  7. gregh286

    gregh286 Senior Member

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    Hmmmm.....Dont use it?
    Or use non dairy whey.
     
  8. outdamnspot

    outdamnspot Senior Member

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    Thanks. I'm in Aus too and was looking at buying it from iHerb. For reference, do you find you're generally unable to tolerate lactose?
     
  9. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    Hi
    I think that the oringinal mention was here http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-encephalopathy-cfs.48446/page-10#post-798387

    I would not think that there was much advantage in buying this particular brand.

    As @Murph explained the advantage was the high levels of available leucine and lysine.

    If you go to the relevant wikipedia pages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucogenic_amino_acid and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucogenic_amino_acid you will find that amino acids vcan be divided into those that can be used to make glucose and those that can be broken down to make ketone bodies.

    If you go to this page http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/amino-acid-metabolism.php and follow the links you will find that it is much more complicated.

    But the central idea, "If you are unable to turn glucose into energy use amino acids or lipids" makes sense to me.

    Over November and December I played around with mixtures of amino acids trying to make this work.

    I used amino acids in part because according to the model that CFS discovery and the Melbourne research team are working on our metabolic disfunction leads us to be deficient in the digestive enzymes needed to break proteins into the amino acids and short peptides that we can absorb.

    You could just get some leucine. Examine https://examine.com/supplements/leucine/ says that the upper tolerable limit for supplementation is 500mg/Kg body weight.

    One downside for some people might be that it stimulates insulin. (Making it harder to access fat stores and make energy from lipids.)

    My preference was to use an amino acid mix, on the assumption that my long standing issues with digestion would mean that I was generally low in some of these amino acids. I played around with a mix called future whey that I would not recommend as it contains sugar alcohols and I do not like diarrohea. I also used an EAA mix which was better.

    I made these mixtures up with 12.5g amino acids 3.5g salt 2.25g potassium chloride and 2g bicarbonate of soda (NaHCO3). I have PoTS and need the salt and potassium anyway, but the salt and bicarb in this mixture helps by providing the sodium for the sodium dependent amino acid transporters that we all use to absorb amino acids from our intestines.

    Made this way it is absorbed very quickly. I found that it really helped with PoTS.

    But I am still playing around with these things and trying to get the right balance for me.
     
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  10. lafarfelue

    lafarfelue Senior Member

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    I don't tolerate lactose (I miss cheese :cry:), but I have not noticed additional gut issues due to my consumption of Dymatize whey protein. I hope you're able to tolerate it, because it is sometimes a bit of a situation saver.:thumbsup:
     
    Murph likes this.
  11. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    I should add that other (non ketogenic) amino acids could also be useful.

    If you look at the naviaux reserach you will see that we are pretty bad at making sphingolipids. To make sphingolipids you need serine which is made from glycolysis (in healthy people).

    Serine is pretty expensive, but glycine (which is cheap) that we are also likely to be low in is made by one step from serine, and can be made into serine by reversal of the same step.

    To make the sphingolipids you will also need phosphatidyl choline (in lecithin) and palmitoyl CoA (which I think you will have as a matter of course but I am beyond the limits of my knowledge here). It is also stimulated by menaquinone 4 (vitamin k MK4)
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/18007585_Vitamin_K_stimulation_of_sphingolipid_synthesis

    I am pretty ill, and am making my way through the biochemistry but slowly, but not doing glycolysis, or not doing enough of it will probably cause a lot of shortages. I know that I need a lot of inositol (which is made from the same glycolysis intermediate as serine (glucose-6-phosphate).

    I also think that it might be worth supplementing proline (naviaux mentions that we (or at least men with me/cfs I tend to focus on that part of his conclusions) are converting proline into argenine, ornithine and citrulline.
     

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