Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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Dramatic improvement in mental symptoms from melatonin dosed in the DAY

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by douglasmich, Mar 15, 2016.

  1. douglasmich

    douglasmich

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    So i accidentally discovered this after i took melatonin at 7am to get back to sleep at it didnt work.

    Essentially if i take 250mcg melatonin in the day and dont sleep, that afternoon i start to feel an improvement in my depression and brainfog. I go to bed with my usual 250mcg melatonin and i wake up the next day feeling DRAMATIC improvement in my symptoms. My suicidal thoughts are completely banished, i feel clam, collected and positive, i feel 80% less brain fog (which is usually CRIPPLING). This lasts the whole day and i go to sleep and wake up the following day with all the symptoms coming back with a VENGENCE.

    Does anyone have any idea what this is doing?

    I did some googling and melatonin does many things. Immunomodulator, HGH releaser, hormone modulator etc. I have no idea of the cause.

    Maybe its just screwing around my circadian cycle which pushes my body off balance releasing some neurotransmitters?
     
    PatJ, JES, ahmo and 4 others like this.
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Very, very interesting.

    A while back, I had been suffering continuously for years from severe generalized anxiety disorder, and every single minute of the day I felt intense mental tension; and I also had severe anhedonia and blunted affect, which caused huge amounts of suicidal ideation.

    Every day was hell, but during this time, I noticed a rather odd thing. I noticed that for the first two or three minutes just after waking up, but before I really woking fully and cast of the sleepy state, my mind was perfectly calm and my mood perfectly good. Then two or three minutes later, this state wore off, and the severe anxiety and anhedonia reinstated itself for the rest of the day.

    I thought my mental symptoms of anxiety and anhedonia were likely driven by chronic brain inflammation (I caught a virus and had viral meningitis a few years prior, and the feeling of inflammation in my head that the virus and meningitis produced never quite went away).

    So my theory was that during sleep, brain inflammation might be turned off, and that's why I had no symptoms of anxiety nor anhedonia on first waking, because the brain was still partially in the state of sleep.


    Anyway, melatonin has potent anti-inflammatory effects in the brain, so possibly this might be why taking melatonin during the day helps your mental symptoms. I suspect your mental symptoms might be due to brain inflammation, and these symptoms may have been quelled by melatonin's calming action on inflammation.

    If brain inflammation is indeed the cause of your mental symptoms, you might want to look at some of the anti-inflammatory supplements I listed in this thread:

    Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements!

    Those anti-inflammatory supplements (the most effective being N-acetyl-glucosamine) profoundly reduced my anxiety levels. They may also help improve your mental symptoms, if those symptoms are underpinned by brain inflammation.
     
    PatJ, Justin30 and helen1 like this.
  3. douglasmich

    douglasmich

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    Hi.

    The things that interesting is that its the day AFTER taking it i feel better.

    Yesterday i did it again. I took 250mcg melatonin at 12pm noon. I started to feel better that night. Today i feel 50% better mentally and even excited. Tomorrow i will wake up crashed back to depression and brain fog.

    My theory was that taking it in the day shocked my bodies circadian rhythm and it sort of realized i was sick and started to fix some things. Then the cycle came to a halt and i crash.

    Its not really practical anyway. Melatonin in the day can't be healthy. ..
     
  4. JPV

    JPV ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs

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    I doubt that it's detrimental to take it during the day. 250mcg is a very small dose anyway. The generally recommended dosage is anywhere from 3-10mg.

    I often take just 300mcg at night which is the dose recommended for Delayed Phase Sleep Disorder, which I seem to suffer from. Melatonin is one of those supplements that is sometimes more effective in smaller doses, depending on the condition it's being taken for.

    There seems to be some literature concerning melatonin and gut bacteria. This might be something worth looking into...

    Human Gut Bacteria Are Sensitive to Melatonin and Express Endogenous Circadian Rhythmicity
     
  5. douglasmich

    douglasmich

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    Very interesting thanks for that.

    I guess i could do this once a week to have a day of positivity per week haha. It is a rebound effect however. Too complex to decipher
     
  6. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    I will trial a low dose in daytime and see what happens. Regarding myself, I have noted that if I have one night of little sleep (3 to max 5 hours), then at some point during the next day I will feel better. My chronic anxiety is reduced and I can get few hours of increased productivity, which would not happen on 8 hours of sleep.

    Of course, just like daytime Melatonin, it probably isn't a very good long-term approach. But at least I can manage a day in the week feeling better with just few hours of sleep sacrificed, which is well worth it.
     
  7. douglasmich

    douglasmich

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    Funny you say that because when i first discovered this i was taking melatonin at 7am after 2hrs sleep. And it didn't work so i stayed up. Woke up following day amazing.

    This time i did it without the sleep deprivation and it still worked but not as good.
     
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Have you tried taking this very low 0.25 mg dose of melatonin during the day for more than one day in a row?

    By the way, melatonin boosts mitochondrial complexes I and IV. Ref: 1.
     
  9. douglasmich

    douglasmich

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    Not yet that's on my list to try.

    But so far the most profound effect is sleeping for 4 hours and taking it and staying up. The day after il feel good. It still works without the acute sleep deprivation but nowhere as good.

    I think it might mimic the effects of sleep deprivation which has been shown to raise dopamine. Im not totally sure. If i did this once a week rotated with 25-50mg 5htp i would have a better mood half the time.
     
  10. douglasmich

    douglasmich

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    Ok so i did this again. I could only sleep for 2 hours the other night. I took melatonin in an attempt to get back to sleep and it didnt work.

    Next day literally 0 brainfog and depression essentially gone. 10x stronger with the sleep deprivaiton.
     
    Ritto likes this.
  11. K22

    K22

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    I take melatonin at night and get a temporary short-term, marked boost mainly in brain fog which is my crippling symptom, it only lasts 1-2 hr - 1 hr though and doesn't last the next day.
    Melatonin also aids my sleep.

    I think the scientists doing research into potential treatments should explore why melatonin, benzos and hypnotics like zolpidem seem to clear brain fog temporarily. Unfortunately I'm not sure if their artificial relief can lead to unsustainable booms.
     
  12. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    Melatonin reduces inflammation in the brain and can also help repair and grow neurons.
     
  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Dr Cheney suggests benzodiazepines are helpful for ME/CFS because they reduce neuronal excitation.
     
  14. Battery Muncher

    Battery Muncher Senior Member

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    Really interesting posts. You say you had no brain fog at all?

    Can you do all the things you normally might not be able to? For example, read certain books, do mathematics, hold a good conversation (one of the hardest things for me to do!)?

    Or do you still have cognitive issues, but they are significantly reduced?
     
    panckage likes this.
  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    This evening I took a low 0.5 mg dose of melatonin at 6 pm. This is one tenth of the 5 mg dose I take every night before bed to help me sleep.

    In my case, I did not notice any improvements in ME/CFS symptoms. And perhaps predictably, this 0.5 mg dose made me fall asleep for an hour at around 10 pm.
     
  16. douglasmich

    douglasmich

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    Yes but i take 200ug melatonin everynight for the past 2 years to get to sleep. I see no such benefits.

    The benefits i am getting is from sleeping 2-4 hours, waking up at 8am and taking 200ug melatonin and then staying up for the full day (still minimal benefits this day). Then i take my usual meltaonin at night, and wake up the next day with no depression and nearly no brainfog. Then the day after that im back to bad.

    When i dont do this i have terrible brainfog where it feels like there is a cloud in the front of my head and articulating thoughts for a conversation is very very hard. Also basic mathmatics impossible. When i do this protocal i can have conversations and arugments and my thoughts flow and i feel relaxed. I also dont think about death i think about recovery.

    I dont know why it works. I tried sleep deprivation alone, it didnt work. I tried melatonin alone, it worked 40% but both of them together was very very potent for my mental sides.

    I suspect its shocking my circadian ryhtm pushing around neurotransmitters and also effecting my immune system (i suspect alot of problem is immune related)

    melatonin is an immunomodulator and sleep deprivation is aswell.
     
  17. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    The people who I have corresponded with that take or have taken melatonin were taking much higher doses.
     
  18. slysaint

    slysaint Senior Member

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    Found a study that says:
    'When participants were making their own melatonin (as shown by theblood tests), the use of melatonin supplements didn't affect sleep efficiency. But sleep efficiency improved when participants took melatonin supplements while their bodies weren't making melatonin, the study shows.'
     
  19. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    I had a chance to test the sleep deprivation effect again, this time with melatonin. Took around 0.5 mg in the morning after sleeping ~3 hours last night. Interestingly I didn't feel sleepy at all in the morning (had a short nap in the afternoon but still feeling better than usual). I would say melatonin helped me feeling even better than normally after sleep deprivation, but to confirm this effect I will trial a couple of times more with a different dosage. Interestingly, I usually feel best the day after sleep deprivation. The next morning I still feel good when waking up, but the typical anxiety/brainfog symptoms settle in during the afternoon.

    Anyway, this approach should be documented if it really works, hopefully more people here will be able to trial it. For many CFS/ME patients mental exhaustion is one of the worst symptoms, and this has the potential to improve it.
     
  20. douglasmich

    douglasmich

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    Okay guys WTF this is no joke .

    Let me first say , I am suffering from a drug induced (probable epigenetic/antibody) hormone receptor disorder which has crashed my entire body as hormones effect every cell. Many of my symptoms overlap with CFS/ME as the body is all connected .

    My worst symptoms
    -crippling brainfog
    -glutamate overload (sicky brain feeling)
    -visual snow / eye floaters
    -anhedonia
    -severe apathy
    -connective tissue weak all over (major muskuloskeletal problems)
    -osteroperosis at 21yrold

    My condition was originally post finasteride syndrome which has worsened leading to many symptoms palls have here on top of PFS. My body is very f$cked and I am housebound unable to provide for myself .


    I just did this Protocal again. This is what I did

    Thursday: 3 hours sleep

    Friday: 250ug melatonin at 7am and stay up . afternoon start to feel improvement in symptoms. Friday night take 500ug melatonin and go to sleep.

    Saturday: Wake up from deep sleep and feel a HUGE improvement in symptoms. And it's not just mental. Firstly I have a driving force to recover from this hell. I'm positive and I start focussing on recovery. I start talking to my family more and I have zero suicidal thoughts its simply not an option anymore. I start listening to music Again and feel goosebumps all over. And I have PHYSICAL changes in my connective tissue . My joint instability dramatically improves. Also my MCS is gone so it seems my detoxification is fixed too.

    Sunday; HUGE CRASH. All symptoms return And its a night and day difference.



    Can anyone help me understand what's happening ? From accounts I've read people that benefit from acute sleep deprivation get the effects the following day not the second day like me.

    Sleep deprivation alone didn't work, melatonin alone worked 50% and sleep deprivation + day melatonin worked 100%

    Would it be possible that this combination is either up regulating or downregulating something so that when I return to my usual baseline some receptor is getting more of something and I feel great, then my body readapts and I crash back to bad.

    Or my immune system is being shifted in a good way reversing dysregulation but my body pushes me back to hell.


    Melatonin and sleep deprivation do 100000 things so I have no idea. But the effect is profound. If there was a way I could induce a better baseline I might be able to push my body back to normality .

    Maybe I need to experiment with higher melatonin doses or 2 days of no sleep in a row?
     
    panckage likes this.

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