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Dr. Rind's latest revelations about "adrenal fatigue"

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by drob31, Aug 11, 2014.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    yes, apparently the PVN or the paraventricular nuclues, is a part of the brain which controls adrenal function or release/supresses cortisol function is involved in what we call adrenal fatigue. Im guessing its dysfunctions is either a possible injury to the PVN or maybe its some type of fuse where it goes off as a protective mechanism but we somehow cant switch the power back on, thats just a guess though. Issues can still happen with the adrenal glands themselves but apparently its more likely the dysfunction of the PVN that causes low cortisol or irregular cortisol cycle.

    Im guess this adrenal dysfunction can occur on its own, maybe a burn out type situation and probably also occurs in many chronic conditions. In cfs/me i think its probably a down stream secondary issue, many of us test low in cortisol and or dhea, so its a common abnormality found through testing?
     
  2. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    @drob31 I understand what you are saying. I agree with you - I don't subscribe to the internet forum diagnosis of "one tired little gland" as causing all the havoc.

    I am describing "adrenal fatigue syndrome" AFS - a complex system of chronic stress-induced HPA axis imbalances and deadlocked biological malfunctions that have been well documented and described by Dr. Michael Lam. His excellent book describes the progression of the syndrome, the multiple layers of dysfunction and the resulting nutritional imbalances, in a way that should prove satisfyingly informative to any open-minded doctor or sufferer wanting to understand what AFS is.. and what AFS is not.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014
  3. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I think you need to read more medical journals. There is research going back to the dawn of CFS including several criteria plus there was a body of research into ME before that. There were codes in the WHO ISD.

    and what does "adrenal fatigue" have, any classifications? any international criteria? any research at all?

    People with ME and CFS are exactly the ones who should be questioning these ideas. We are used to having flimsy, non-defined things like "functional somatic syndromes" thrown at us. Adrenal Fatigue could be another red herring and it doesn't benefit people if there is nothing there. I've spent 30 years having books recommenced to me on ideas that never amounted to more than a fringe belief.

    Hopefully that will change over time for your symptoms and the cause. We can all hope for more research and certainty.
     
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  4. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    One thing that really made me think was when Dr. Rinds assistant (former astrophysicist, don't ask), mentioned that while I went through a few traumatic events, and this was 4 months ago, that people come back from war and don't have adrenal fatigue. That sort of put it into perspective.
     
  5. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    The first mistake is to treat data and not patients.

    Pathology always exists on a continuum. To say that it doesn't in the case of adrenal dysfunction is ludicrous. Adrenals don't typically function perfectly one day and then realize when they have passed some arbitrary lab cutoff the next. The dysfunction is progressive and doctors should recognize the spectrum just as they do with the pancreas/diabetes. The warning signs are there many years in advance.

    A leading cause of Addison's for many years throughout recent history was actually infection. Cytomegalovirus in particular is known to cause AI and many of us have chronic CMV infections. There's no reason to think that other infectious processes wouldn't similarly affect the adrenals.
     
  6. Beyond

    Beyond Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!

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    Thats a good point, however I stay on a neutral ground and say that both scenarios are possible: you can get "adrenally fatigued" via chronic stress and also you can have something that is causing adrenal fatigue such as lyme. Scientists call this first scenario "depression" and it is a routinely studied phenomenon, such as the "chronic stress model of mice", this is, permanent malfunction of a couple of glands and organs as a result of chronic stress (they torture the animal said with all honesty). Interestingly enough they pretend emotional depression which is a very different thing is the same as this "physiological depression" which I no doubt identify with "adrenal fatigue".

    For instance, high cortisol is a hallmark of "major depression" in humans. It is all very complex, but I wonder how many of these people have low serum DHEA, pregnenolone and progesterone and low saliva cortisol (that means adrenal fatigue 100% sure, I have all of these sadly).
     
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  7. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    With regard to the interesting comments above I was wondering about burnout. Wouldn't this definitely contribute to underfunctioning adrenals if it had been going on for many years from a variety of causes? If the adrenals weren't functioning well then it would impact the thyroid too so one would then get a double whammy and have all sorts of problems (not necessarily ME/CFS though).

    Pam
     
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  8. South

    South Senior Member

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    @drob31 So drob31, can we ask what Dr. Rind's advice was in your case...or if you'd rather not discuss your own case, do you know what his advice is to many of his other patients who come in with adrenal symptoms? Test for pathogens and then use products to kill those pathogens?

    Does he have any insight into doing such testing and pathogen treatment that other doctors don't have, is something I wonder.
     
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  9. South

    South Senior Member

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    Since Dr. Rind was adult enough to admit verbally that he changed his opinion on something he'd previously publicly published, is he also adult enough to change the content of his website? I just looked, and his website's adrenal page still only discusses supplements for sale like glandulars, vitamin C, etc, and makes no mention of testing for infections as a way to heal the adrenals. I hope he doesn't have a financial interest in Dove brand of supplements featured on his website.

    I'm going to be a negative Nelly here. I don't like doctors who won't admit when they are wrong, in full. His adrenal page still states "Providing the body with proper support in the form of vitamin supplements can significantly decrease, if not completely eliminate, low metabolic energy and its symptoms.".
     
  10. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    He has nothing. I no longer see him. He said I had lyme with no testing, and based it on treating it empirically.
     
  11. aquaster

    aquaster Keep moving forward...

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    Yep, Dr. Rind is my doc and I also have AF. I have spent the last year with him trying to find the "root cause" of my AF (mold? Lyme? heavy metals?). Nothing has helped and I'm as low energy as ever.
     
  12. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Has he tested you for autoimmune conditions?
     
  13. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    I have virtual adrenal insufficiency but despite medication for this I suffered in the way you mention feeling exhausted without doing much. What has worked for me to turn things around was loosely following the Cowden Protocol for Lyme (there is a thread on this). I started it last September and started getting improvements in energy within 3 months and this improvement has continued. Before I started it I would get lots of dizziness and overstimulation of my central nervous system but this only rarely happens now.

    Last year I did have the LTT test for borrelia from Infectolab and got 3 positive results plus the co-infection Ehrlichia. The only downside of Cowden is it can be expensive but they do run a scheme where one can get it a reduced prices. Nutramedix are the manufactures of the herbals.

    Pam
     
  14. Kir

    Kir

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    To say that people when have been to war don't come back with adrenal fatigue is not only incorrect, but beyond generalizing. Not everyone who has been to war comes back with PTSD either, but a huge majority of them do. I spoke to an expert once who treated vets and he said that PTSD was often linked to a sudden or cumulative onset of severe adrenal exhaustion, brought on by trauma, and in their case, war. As someone who is married to a vet with PTSD and AF issues, the two have been linked. With all due respect your doctor's assistant should have remained an astrophysicist, and not speculated on things he clearly does not know about. All of my AF issues started after traumatic events in my life and I have been told that I have a form of PTSD as well.
     
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  15. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I agree with you. I think the point I was going for was that stress and AF issues aren't just a permanent reaction, but rather, there is an underlying issue that causes them to persist.

    I no longer see Rind (or do I agree with his practice).
     
  16. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Also other occupations like police, ambulance etc dont necessarily have ptsd but do have hypervigilance, where they have multiple adrenaline rushes per shift, where someone in a normal occupation may get the odd adrenaline rush once a week say when someone cuts them off in traffic etc.

    hypervigilance is a good thing to have in these jobs but i think long term can cause fatigue states such as adrenal type fatigue. Added to that mess is shift work and sleep deprivation. I believe all of that combined has more to do with burn out seen than ptsd type effects or seeing horrific situations.

    im in emergency type work, now part time. Many say how do i do it with cfsme, well i dont know but i think when the heat is on the adrenaline gets me through. I often find after doing a job with high pressure, i than go into a slump and its hard to concentrate especially trying to do paperwork afterwards. I'm also a vegetable on days off, so its a constant push crash .

    Why do i do it, i dont know. I dont think I could get disability for cfsme. I guess im a stable push crash. Maybe all the things i do are helping me to keep functioning and i do take alot of ttreatments etc. I do like what i do but also its easier said than done to just change jobs.

    One day something will snap i guess but im holding out until i can get my kids through high school. 2 yrs to go than I will make a big decision on what i will do.
     
  17. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    :eek::hug:
     
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  18. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    The working vegetable. Haha
    i think theres a few of us
     

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