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Dr. Rind's latest revelations about "adrenal fatigue"

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by drob31, Aug 11, 2014.

  1. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    I posted another thread about my visit with Dr. Bruce Rind the other day, however I wanted to shed light on his latest thought processes when it comes to treating thyroid/adrenal dysfunction, and perhaps diagnoses of CFS like issues.

    You may have seen Dr. Rind's temperature graphs, they are all over the place, and also his website has a plethora of information about metabolic issues, including adrenal and thyroid issues:

    http://www.drrind.com/

    Some of his work is pretty well known when it comes to treating thyroid and adrenal issues. However, it seems as Dr. Rind's opinions of these things has evolved over the years. He's not the same Dr. Rind that you read about on his website. Given my lab work, which for the most part is within normal boundaries (low t3, anomalous cortisol rhythm) Dr. Rind doesn't look to give me thyroid meds for my thyroid or even support my adrenals with glandulars. Rather, he states that I have hypothyroid symptoms possibly because my adrenal glands are malfunctioning (nothing new), and that is not solved by giving me a supplement, rather he believes something is taxing the adrenal gland, such as a deficiency, toxicity, or infection (bacteria, virus, auto immune reaction). He thought my adrenals were being taxed because of mold or lyme. I'm investigating this now, but it makes a very important distinction:

    Your adrenal glands don't get fatigued. They're dysfunctioning for a reason. Solve the mystery and everything is healed. It flys in the face of what countless ND Dr.s are saying about treating adrenal fatigue and it taking 2-3 years to heal. Just be patient for a couple of years, sleep 10 hours a night, never drink caffeine, never stay up late, never go out partying, never stray off your diet, take 100 supplements produced by a company that I make money from, then in 3 years, you'll be healed.

    So according to this thought process: There is no such thing as adrenal fatigue, coming from one of the original "adrenal fatigue" doctors.


    I'm not saying I agree with him, but based on his analysis of me, he felt there was an underlying condition. I know I have elevated kryptopyrolles, and am compound heterozygous for MTHFR, but is that really enough to tax my adrenals? Perhaps not, but maybe it's a bunch of small conditions that are giving me little "paper cuts."

    In any case, this really made me re-evaluate treating adrenal fatigue, and how using glandulars and taking massive doses of vitamin C, and having Dr. Lam tell you that you'll get better in 3 years if your lucky may not be the correct path. It assumes your adrenals can't fix or right themselves as quickly as any other organ can.


    Thoughts? Do you believe your adrenals need a long period of time to heal? Or do they need a "burden" to be lifted from them?
    bertiedog, golden and zzz like this.
  2. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I'm glad he has changed his mind. I've never felt that my adrenals were fatigued. On the other hand I have no idea why I have low morning cortisol.

    The other thing to maybe consider is that the low cortisol is a protective reaction to something. That it is part of a mechanism that our body does but we don't yet know why.

    The early mentions of low cortisol in CFS talked about a HPA axis dysfunction. "Adrenal fatigue" never caught on in CFS circles. Probably because of us were testing for other things - like a virus and wondering how that affected the adrenals.
    Maybe we produce antibodies to something in that axis, maybe it is a virus or bacteria or something directly acting in that area or using the cortisol. We just don't know yet. It could be very individual.
  3. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Very relieved to hear this, always felt like adrenal fatigue was a quack thing to say. I have no doubt adrenals can get taxed from certain issues but not in the ways it is often described for treating adrenal fatigue.
    PennyIA likes this.
  4. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Verrrry interesting...how often do you hear of a guy like that changing his mind? I think what he is saying is true in many cases, including my own.

    I believe the reason is due to methylation issues - Rich Vank hypothesized that adrenal "fatigue" was caused by a signaling problem higher up in the pituitary, which was caused by glutathione depletion.
    http://forums.prohealth.com/forums/...ne-can-fix-hpa-axis-problems-adrenals.173121/

    Ben Lynch also has an entire presentation on how MTHFR can cause autoimmune thyroiditis.


    After some time on methylation treatment, I no longer have autoimmune thyroiditis - I'm off my med, and my labs are normal.

    My adrenals, which were previously flatlined, are about 50% improved, based on the amount of supplementation I've been able to reduce.
    golden, Sasha and zzz like this.
  5. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic & adrenaline junkie

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    I recovered from a severe case of AFS (adrenal fatigue syndrome) by following the protocol described by Dr. Lam. It took me about 2 years to recover from the adrenal specific symptoms and which point i was left with "only" CFS symptoms which totally suck, but are not as bad as AFS. Those massive doses of C, pantethine, adaptogens and collagen were essential to restoring any semblance of vitality and quality of life. At that point in recovery I discovered my remaining cluster of symptoms (nasty PEM, delayed fatigue... without all the physical haywire)..were better described as CFS and I changed my treatment strategy. Someone telling me that the searing my pain above my kidneys, endocrine system crash, ravenous salt cravings, severe muscle and collagen wasting that forced me to lose my home, sell my possessions and close my business is "not really adrenal fatigue" or could have been fixed in a snap (after taking more than a decade to create the complex imbalances) is not something I can take too seriously.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  6. Lillybelle

    Lillybelle

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    Here's the evidence on adrenal fatigue: one paper:
    So let’s look into the medical literature on adrenal fatigue. There’s no entry in Dorland’s medical dictionary, nor does the ICD classify it as a medical condition. Pubmed lists only one relevant paper which is a review by two naturopaths, and published in theAlternative Medicine Review. But there’s no evidence for them to review.

    Fake diseases are compilations of various symptoms into conditions without any scientific basis. Peter Lipson has examined this in detail here at SBM. As Dr. Lipson points out, it’s human nature to want answers and to understand patterns of symptoms. Defining a cluster of symptoms in general terms is the first mistake. Symptoms need to be collated in a rational way to understand the parameters of the disorder. With adrenal fatigue, there’s no objective operational description, nor is there a validated symptom score. Using a vague list of symptoms to identify patients is the second mistake. While laboratory tests are advertised for identifying adrenal fatigue, there’s no persuasive data to demonstrate that blood or saliva tests provide any meaningful information, or are correlated with any underlying pathology.

    Adrenal fatigue shouldn’t be confused with adrenal insufficiency, a legitimate medical condition that can be diagnosed with laboratory tests and has a defined symptomatology. Addison’s diseasecauses primary adrenal insufficiency and usually has an autoimmune cause, with symptoms appearing when most of the adrenal cortex has been destroyed. Secondary adrenal insufficiency is cause by pituitary disorder that gives insufficient hormonal stimulation to the adrenals. Some liken adrenal fatigue to a milder form of adrenal insufficiency — but there’s no underlying pathology that has been associated with adrenal fatigue. That’s actually a common method of disease invention: take a real disease and claim that it exists in a subclinical form, though of course it lacks a single unambiguous sign or symptom. We are supposed to believe that it’s still a serious problem even though it is, by definition, so mild that it is www.sciencebasedmedicine.com
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
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  7. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    This is a good article from Dr Bryan Walsh on adrenal fatigue which explains it very well.

    The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue
    by Dr. Bryan Walsh

    I'm warning you now, folks: Dr. Walsh gets pretty technical in this one. And for good reason.

    You see, there are a lot of supposed experts out there talking about "adrenal fatigue" and cortisol. And most of them are either 1) giving you outdated and often misconstrued info, or 2) they're just full of shit, plain and simple.

    T NATION asked Dr. Walsh to cut through the BS and tell you the real truth about these issues. What he gave us is detailed and cutting edge. In fact, this is the first time a lot of this info has been made public. So strap on your thinking caps and get ready to dig in like your big bulgin' biceps depended on it... because they just might. — CS

    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online...nce_nutrition/the_truth_about_adrenal_fatigue
    Aileen and Hanna like this.
  8. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    That's very interesting, and I think I've read it before. The problem has been; who to trust? Lately the ND's and integrative doctors have not been getting it right, and at the same time the MD's just want to push drugs to "treat" symptoms. So again, it seems "YOU" are the only person who can fix yourself. Good article BTW.

    I've been using .5 mg of melatonin before bed, and 3 seriphos. I dropped the benedryl because it's killing my histamine response.

    As of yesterday it seems P5P is really helping with energy and fatigue.
  9. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic & adrenaline junkie

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    I feel the same way about someone saying Adrenal Fatigue Syndrome is a "made up" disease as I feel about someone saying CFS is an "imaginary woman's disease." They are either selling something (Western medicine that can't offer a solution, or a different holistic diagnosis) or ignorant to the very real suffering experienced by many.

    Also, I think, whether you are fond of the term "adrenal fatigue" or not... it is going to be "the next big thing" that millions claim to be afflicted by. The levels of stress (thus - adrenal gland over use) that modern life involves is not sustainable and so many will soon reach a breaking point.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
    ahmo likes this.
  10. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic & adrenaline junkie

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    I believe that the layperson's concept of "adrenal fatigue" as - "Oh that poor little gland above your kidney is tired, it's going to need a couple years to refresh" is not accurate. But the concept of Adrenal Fatigue Syndrome - a complex set of deadlocked systemic imbalances brought on by chronic stress - of which reduced adrenal gland nutrition or output efficiency plays a part... is frighteningly real.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
  11. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    I found the article interesting, but I don't know either what to think about it.

    I have low cortisol (on a saliva test) and planned to introduce resveratrol as a key element for my lyme treatment plan. According to the article, resveratrol belong to the inhibitors group for cortisol production.

    I wanted to get some "google insight" about the relation between resveratrol and cortisol, and found a study from 2012 that links resveratrol to stimulation of cortisol.

    "Resveratrol stimulates cortisol biosynthesis by activating SIRT-dependent deacetylation of P450scc."

    www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22585829

    I have no scientific background and all this is far above my understanding, and from this I may draw a conclusion that resveratrol acts as a facilitator and does not inhibit cortisol production...
  12. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    So based on that, resveratrol could lead to more pregnenalone being created?
  13. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Well this would fit my history, massive blood loss immediately after childbirth, got mumps for 2 weeks only 10 weeks later despite having this as a child, 4 years later 2 weeks of flu and couldn't recover. From then on the vertigo attacks then went on for weeks plus severe migraines started and went on until I was treated with hydrocortisone and Armour 22 years later! I had endless viruses/infections and I got worse and worse. I know I am positive for borrelia and a co-infection so that is probably why no matter what I did or how I lived my life I got sicker and sicker.

    In 2002 I saw a doctor who was a qualified Endo and when he saw my saliva cortisol/DHEA results he said I had a disordered adrenal gland. Actually cortisol didn't look that low but DHEA was high all day and night and he thought my body was asking for more cortisol but it couldn't be produced so instead I was getting a huge amount of DHEA which was useless for my needs.

    When I got on the h/c I needed 22.5 mg to feel the difference but it was the first drug I ever wanted more of, usually I reacted very badly to drugs but not with h/c.

    I have been on 6 mg or thereabouts of Prednisolone for 12 years now and it has helped me a lot and I can handle stress now whereas before treatment I couldn't and I was always ill and weak. I changed to Pred 6 months after starting the h/c because I was still getting nasty symptoms at night and this showed up as high DHEA around midnight. Once I took the steroids the DHEA dropped back into normal levels.

    Definitely there is a disordered pathway in my case because every test I have done shows high progesterone, it just isn't getting converted into cortisol in the normal way. This could be because of mercury poisoning which I know I had in 2000 but managed to get rid of 5 years later after chelation and amalgam removal and/or as a result of the borrelia and co-infections.

    So as far as I am concerned Dr Rind is correct. Adrenal fatigue is just a term and there is probably very little you can do about it apart from adjust one's lifestyle and diet to ensure one is as healthy as possible for many of us we might need medication and also to address the infections.

    Pam
    justy likes this.
  14. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    The man is right, the adrenal glands do not get "fatigued". It's a signaling problem, not a structural one.
    DeGenesis, ukxmrv and Sushi like this.
  15. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Who wants to wait until most of their adrenal cortex has been destroyed to be diagnosed. I'd much rather be diagnoses at the subclinical stage even though it lacks a single unambiguous sign or symptom. Maybe then I could avoid that unambiguous sign or symptom.
    bertiedog and shah78 like this.
  16. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    Where's the evidence for your claim though?

    Adrenal fatigue through everyday modern stress though - give us the evidence and I'll be very happy to consider.
  17. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic & adrenaline junkie

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    Stabbing pain above my kidney area, in times of severe stress & before I'd ever heard of an 'adrenal gland' - was pretty convincing evidence to me. This symptom is commonly reported in patients with severe AFS (adrenal fatigue syndrome).
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014
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  18. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I was thinking of published evidence, is there any to start to prove that this is a real condition?

    p.s. I have low cortisol on blood and saliva tests and don't get stabbing pains above or near my kidneys at times of stress BTW
  19. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic & adrenaline junkie

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    There were no studies to prove CFS was a "real" condition until relatively very recently. A significant percentage of medical doctors probably still don't think it is a 'real' condition. But people have been suffering from it for ages. It doesn't mean their agony is made up.

    Those who live in glass houses (CFS) shouldn't be so quick or judgmental to throw stones at people suffering from other chronic, but not well understood, conditions.
    shah78 likes this.
  20. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Just to clarify, I'm not saying "adrenal fatigue" dosen't exist. I'm just saying your adrenal glands don't get fatigued themselves. Rather, they are doing whatever they are told to do or not do, unless it is primary disfunction, i.e. Addison's.

    It's clear that adrenal fatigue symptoms exist, but if the adrenal glands were able to get fatigued, then diseases like Cushing's Syndrome could not exist because eventually the adrenal glands would were out from producing so much cortisol.

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