Severe ME Day of Understanding and Remembrance: Aug. 8, 2017
Determined to paper the Internet with articles about ME, Jody Smith brings some additional focus to Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis Day of Understanding and Remembrance on Aug. 8, 2017 ...
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Dr Raymond Perrin(perrin technique) is hoping to have published reports this year

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by keenly, Apr 4, 2017.

  1. keenly

    keenly

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    I saw him today. He was in the states last year and he says they have proven his theories are fact, publications likely to be out this year. They did sophisticated scans of the brain and it verifies his hypothesis. He is also working with a Harley ST neurologist next week who wants to do toxicology tests before and after treatment.

    I do agree lymphatic drainage is involved. We can not remove toxins like an average person. Toxins build up in the brain and it has no effective drainage method to remove them. I even said this to World renowned(now retired) Professor Mathias at the Autonomic Unit, he agreed(although he never bothered to do any research himself).

    http://www.theperrinclinic.com/about.html
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
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  2. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    What do you mean by 'no effect on drainage'?
     
  3. keenly

    keenly

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    Sorry corrected. My keyboard is totally shot, keeps sticking, missing words.

    The brain has no way of naturally removing these toxins, Manual lymph drainage can help do this.
     
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  4. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    Thanks @keenly :) I'm just asking because I get lymph drainage and it does help symptomatically, but after many years I am convinced that it is not a cure, as it doesn't tackle the cause. The toxins blocking the lymphatic system are just a trickle down effect. The toxins (or immune related by-products?) keep on being created no matter how much you drain the lymph system...

    Nonetheless I am very interested to know more about his hypothesis.
     
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  5. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

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  6. keenly

    keenly

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    Perrin himself says it is not a cure! Just a big tool that can help.
     
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  7. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    That is exactly why it helps some (also more severe patients like me): the manual technique supports/stimulates the removal of toxins/byproducts through the lymphatic system. There is so much to remove that it gets clogged, which creates extra symptoms (e.g. headaches). Stimulating it can help but not cure IMO.
     
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  8. keenly

    keenly

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    Maybe I am not explaining it sufficiently.
    From that link.
    ''When a tissue is infected by a pathogen, like a virus, bacteria, or parasite, bits and pieces of the offending pathogen end up in the lymph. These pieces, along with immune cells from the infected tissue, reach the lymph node, and the cells in the lymph node then react to coordinate a specific immune response to the pathogen'

    This is a very important system we need to look at more.
     
  9. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    I didn't know he himself doesn't think it's a cure either. That makes me even more interested in reading his publication. ;)
     
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  10. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

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    Well, as I tell my kids; it will be as it will be. Reality always takes precedence.
     
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  11. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    @keenly Do you get LD from Perrin? Could you explain a bit how it works? (is there also some kind of osteopathy involved?)
     
  12. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Seems that one might want to treat the liver as well. No point draining all the toxins to a liver that can't clear them.
     
  13. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    It's not just toxins though, it's also e.g. byproducts of immune function. I don't think the liver is involved in clearing those (but I could be wrong ;) ).
     
  14. lilpink

    lilpink Senior Member

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    Did it for 18 months. Made zero difference.
     
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  15. Diwi9

    Diwi9 Senior Member

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    My understanding is that the glymphatic system is dependent upon the vascular system within the brain for movement. I would anticipate people with low blood pressure/low blood volume to have problems with their vascular system supporting proper function of the glymphatic system.
     
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  16. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Those were my thoughts regarding why the Perrin Technique of manually promoting lymph flow has helped some ME/CFS patients: perhaps it's is less about removing toxins, and more about improving immune function by ensuring that the lymph vessels, these vital channels of communication of the immune system, are working properly.

    When I was investigating the lymphatic system a few years ago, I learnt that the lymph system has its own pump of sorts, that helps push lymph fluid through the lymph vessels. This lymph fluid pump is called the thoracic duct, and is under control of the autonomic nervous system.

    The thoracic duct is a very simple setup: it is just a narrow tube containing a series of one-way valves, with this tube rhythmically compressed under pulsed smooth muscle contractions that occur once every 10 to 15 seconds. These contractions serve to pump the fluid along the thoracic duct (the fluid can only move in the forwards direction, because the one-way valves prevent the fluid from moving backwards). These smooth muscle contractions are triggered by the autonomic nervous system.

    Additionally, the action of breathing compresses the thoracic duct (which is located in the chest), and this also serves to pump the lymph fluid forwards.

    The thoracic duct pumps around 2.5 liters of lymph fluid every 24 hours. Ref: 1

    I believe the lymph vessels in other areas of the body also possess smooth muscles which, in the same way, contract rhythmically, compressing the lymph vessels and pushing the lymph fluid forwards through the one-way valves. So it is not just the thoracic duct that does the pumping: lymph fluid is also pumped locally in the lymph vessels of the lymphatic system.

    Skeletal muscle usage (eg, moving your limbs) compresses the lymph vessels and also serves to pump the lymph fluid forward.

    thoracic duct (Adam).jpg
    Thoracic duct tube (in green), which pumps lymph fluid

    Given the autonomic dysfunction often found in ME/CFS, I wonder whether this dysfunction might have weakened the smooth muscle contractions of the thoracic duct and lymph vessels, thus leading to reduced flow of lymph fluid (lymph stagnation).



    Lymphagogues (substances that increase lymph flow or lymph fluid quantity) include:

    Diosmin (semisynthetic flavonoid derived from citrus fruits) — increases the frequency and intensity of lymphatic contractions, and increases lymph flow. Refs: 1 2

    Cleavers (Galium aparine)
    Marigold (Calendula officinalis)
    Poke root, pokeweed (Phytolacca americana)
    Wild indigo (Baptisia tinctoria)
    Ocotillo (Fouquieria splendens)
    Queen's root (Stillingia sylvatica)


    My brief experiment taking a combination of cleavers, marigold and poke root twice daily for around 1 week, however, did not lead to any improvements in ME/CFS symptoms. But perhaps you'd need to take these lymphagogues for longer than that to see benefits.

    I also tried diosmin, but had to stop as it made my skin incredibly itchy (diosmin affects histamine, which may explain the itchiness).
     
  17. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

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    That may be true. I have no idea how the glymph or vascular system work. In the end it's a matter of whether the PT works to move things and whether moving them has a useful effect and to what degree. I would think that if people with ME have vascular issues things may no go to plan.

    But if it works to produce some better QoL for some then that's good.
     
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  18. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    I had a similar experience. Went to Ray Perrin's clinic roughly once a week for a year. No change, good or bad.
     
  19. keenly

    keenly

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    Not even a detox reaction to begin with?

    When I first went, many years back now, the initial 3 months were horrible. I was feeling like vomiting every day!!
     
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  20. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    My naturopath is insisting I sauna every day to move toxins and the aforementioned infectious products out of me. He returned from a conference where the benefits were apparently discussed at length. Dry or FIR sauna, not wet.

    I have lymphedema after my cancer surgery, which makes this a problem. However, I went to a lymphedema retreat where we were taught about the lymph system and how to drain it, and I've worked with therapists using 3 techniques.

    MLD is the standard, practiced by most therapists. I've seen it help people, but it's not as effective for me.

    The most effective technique is called Chikly, and it was developed in France. It got more of my lymph moving up through the center of my body, rather than up the sides as in MLD.

    The last technique is strain/counterstrsin, where pressure placed on various areas caused different lymph nodes to drain. I found it helpful, too. It and Chikly focused on the cisterna chyli shown in the above diagrams as a key to getting fluid moving up from the lower body.

    All the techniques start at the neck and between the collar bones then working gradually down the body to the extremities.

    A one time effort is not enough to make a difference. It's the daily practice of sauna and these techniques (though the lymphedema people gasp at the idea of a sauna, which can exacerbate the lymphedema) that would keep toxins moving.

    I've met some people who've done it enough that just starting the process of massage lightly causes the fluid to start draining.

    The thing that's frustrated me is the lymphedema people (who tend to be PTs, not doctors) don't know anything about toxins, and the docs pushing the saunas don't know much about details of the lymph system or lymphedema. It's another under-researched area.

    My doctor says sweat with exercise is good, too, but that's another story for all of us...
     

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