Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by omerbasket, Dec 20, 2010.
You gotta also like the statement that experienced researchers understand the limits of PCR technology. If that isn't a sneer...
It's just too bad it's starting to resemble a boxing match.
Quite disheartening to hear Professor Racaniello say in the Chicago tribune, "These four papers are probably the beginning of the end of XMRV and CFS"
Does it matter what else he says about that statement unless it is to take it back?
If i read the entire blog entry and his replies to comments i get a different impression than what i get from just that one sentence.
i did. Looks like he's trying to both backtrack and uphold the contamination causation.
here is just a few posts about his statement:
Omerbasket [Moderator] 2 hours ago
Mr. Racaniello. You said in the comments: "There are clearly questions that remained to be addressed". You also said that LNCap cells cannot produce antibodies - and you probably know that the WPI found antibodies to XMRV, and it is published in the Science paper. Meaning that it just cannot be a contamination.
So why, if you think and know all the above, you told the Chicago Tribune today that "it is the beginning of the end for XMRV"?
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profvrr [Moderator] 1 hour ago in reply to Omerbasket
The finding of antibodies does not necessarily disprove contamination
- there are other explanations. My statement to the Tribune yesterday
was based on my initial reading of the Retrovirology papers. However
upon further consideration it is clear that the results of all four
papers do not challenge the existence of XMRV in patients; rather they
point out potential pitfalls in doing research on this virus.
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Otis [Moderator] 17 minutes ago in reply to profvrr
While I appreciate your willingness to reconsider your initial position it makes one wonder about how much effort you apply to appropriate scientific rigor prior to making such comments, blog posts or podcasts. Your statement here does little to undo conclusions based on your previous statement.
Wow, i just saw that in the meantime Dr. Klein of the Cleveland Clinic replied to Dr. Racianellos blog and said that they have reported XMRV integration in fresh human tissue. What i hoped for yesterday seems to be happening. By claiming XMRV is not a real human virus those people have now made themselves some very powerful "enemies". They have attacked some of the best. We are very lucky from that point of view, if you look at who now is challenged to defend our position. Klein, Silverman, de Risi (the discoverers of XMRV), Alter... don't look good for them
Do you have a link to that? That would be great news.
Me, personally, i have respect for how Dr. Racianello takes the time to reply to comments on his blog. Of course i don't like to hear something might be the end of XMRV and CFS, but i have no problem with him.
With great pleasure
A bit less than halfway down in the comments...
Get them, Eric :tongue:
This is good news, but I'm still unhappy that his earlier incorrect statement remains in Trine's article without his correction. I suspect she gets bigger readership than does his blog. :Retro mad:
There's a real conflict here between the 24/7 news cycle and the need to carefully assess the information in complicated scientific papers before giving an opinion on them. The story unfolding on Dr. R's blog is an interesting one - he's already had to revise his original post numerous times as people come in and clarify/correct. It was exciting to see Eric Klein from the Cleveland Clinic pop up with some critical information about viral integration.
I'm a big fan of Dr. R., but I wish he wouldn't have made that "beginning of the end" comment to TT before really getting his arms around the claims that were being made in the papers and the arguments against them. Let those among us who have never made a quick comment to a journalist that we later regretted cast the first stone....
Raccaniello has definitely reconsidered his comments to the Tribune author. He is profvrr
Lombardi and Lo et al identified a human antibody response to a gamma retroviral infection and demonstrated that live gamma retrovirus isolated from human blood could infect human cells in culture. That can't be explained by contamination can it?
It's possible that some individuals are infected with XMRV or a
closely related virus. Or that the LNCaP used for co-culture with
human PBMC were contaminated with XMRV. These are important questions
that need to be answered.
But doesn't the demonstration of infectivity in culture by Ruscetti et al directly undermine the claim by Hue et al that the sequences encode an envelope that (as you say) "cannot attach to human cells"?
Yes, assuming that the virus obtained in culture has the same sequence
as that deposited in the database. But the WPI sequences in GenBank -
at least the full length ones - are nearly identical to the De Risi
isolate which has the MoMLV homology. There are clearly questions that
remain to be addressed.
Dr. Yasuhiro Ikeda from the Mayo Clinic reported in a talk from March of this year that he had found some LnCap cell-lines to be infected with XMRV. Is such a cell-line capable of producing antibodies?
No, LNCap cells cannot produce antibodies.
Dear Prof Racaniello, I am a follower of your podcasts and blogging, I noted that in the Chicago Tribune you are quoted as saying "These four papers are probably the beginning of the end of XMRV and CFS," although this does seem at odds with the comments in this comment section and the tone of your blog, would you be able to clarify your statement? were you mis quoted in the Chicago Tribune?
I did make that statement to the Tribune, and followed it with
comments similar to those in this blog post. I do believe that the
MoMLV homology is a big problem, but not an impossible one to explain.
I do not believe that the four Retrovirology papers prove that XMRV is
not involved in human disease.
I thought XMRV had been found intergrated into prostate cancer cells? Could that be contamination? Funny how there seems to be a bit of an Atlantic divide on this.
Silverman and colleagues published a paper in PLoS One in which the
integration of XMRV into the human prostate cancer cell line DU145 was
studied. They infect the cells with virus and find viral DNA
integrated into the genome of the cells. Looking at the paper, I don't
see any reason to believe that the cells were already infected with
XMRV, although they don't state that they checked uninfected cells.
Cleveland Clinic - Eric Klein, Cleveland Clinic [Moderator] 2 hours ago in reply to profvrr
We have reported XMRV integration in fresh frozen prostate tissue taken directly from patients at radical prostatectomy that has never been put in tissue culture and believe this is solid evidence of authentic human infection . See Dong et al PNAS 2007 and Kim et al. J Virol 2008
So after all this time we don't really have any clear evidence that XMRV is able to infect humans at all? I wonder what Silverman thinks about all this.
Remember that WPI has found antibodies to XMRV in patient sera, and
has been able to propagate the virus in cultured cells. So there are
still issues to be clarified - see my other comment on this issue.
Sounds Exciting Eric, and exactly my point on a few of the comments, they might just have shot themselves in the foot, with this.In many ways as are being discussed, had a few symptoms today comforting that things look less bleak than 24 hours ago, but thats a big point too isnt it, how easy it is to distress and convince many people ( patients too ) without a full understanding of the science. Something im sure they know damm well will help there slight under hand tactics to help win this argument, because thats what its all about now i feel. You know Eric in many ways from there point of view i think it always has been. So hard to admit so many negative doctors and psychiatrists could all have been so wrong. Now they are fighting for validation of there own belief systems, just like we had ( still have to ) do
what goes around comes around. Have to belive that.
More posts about contamination
Prof R poorly defending contamination
Gob987 [Moderator] 2 hours ago
If patient samples were contaminated at similar rates of between 67 and 85 percent and healthy control samples were contaminated at rates between 3 and 7 percent. Then how did the patient samples get contaminated more than the healthy control samples? Lombardi was a blinded study, I forget about Lo et al.
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profvrr [Moderator] 2 hours ago in reply to Gob987
That is a question for which there is no answer, but which is
speculated upon in the two Coffin manuscripts published in
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Poptone_uk [Moderator] 1 hour ago in reply to profvrr
And that is a cop out answer. It's a simple question. How about a simple answer? How can a supposed contaminant choose to show up in such high numbers in ME/CFS patients and at only around 4% of healthy subjects? And it does this consistently. Surely a contaminant would show up in roughly equal numbers in both sets? Something smells rotten. So an answer then and not an avoiding of the simple question?
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profvrr [Moderator] 1 hour ago in reply to Poptone_uk
I'm not avoiding the question, these issues have been discussed
elsewhere and there is no need to repeat them. It's simply not true
that a contaminant would show up with equal frequency in controls and
specimens. For example: if controls and patient samples are collected
at different times, by different individuals, they can be contaminated
at different rates. Patient samples also tend to be handled more often
than controls from a blood bank, for example. In one of the
Retrovirology papers the frequency of XMRV positives was higher in
controls than in patient samples - and all were due to contamination.
There is no simple answer until everyone checks assiduously for
contamination. That's what these four papers are telling us.
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Poptone_uk [Moderator] 1 hour ago in reply to profvrr
But in the great majority of studies that returned pretty much the same levels of positives in ME/CFS patients and in the health subjects they weren't just using PCR testing, and also they weren't set out on trying to prove a contamination theory (and that's all it still is), for whatever reasons and for whoever that suits. So, no, your answer doesn't satisfy me. I find it very interesting that you and so others are so hell bent on wanting the contamination theory to be proved right to the extent that you virtually ignore those that offer up totally plausible and provable explanations that this ISN'T contamination. So, just why is that, hmm?
I wipe my virtual :mask::Sign Please::innocent1: with Retrovirology
Sorry, tomorrow i will act normal again... but we say it like that in my country
I will Answer that for him. Because their own belief systems will be so damaged when it turns out they could have been so wrong for so long about the condition ME/CFS
That their whole worldview ( including but not necessarly confined to there egos ) will ALL COME CRASHING DOWN
Ending in a situation of feelings of guilt (on thier part ) and the horrible horrible feeling that they really may have hurt so many patients for so long.
That it is too sickening for them to stomach, that indeed they are, and always have been, messengers of pain and suffering to so many.
Now isnt it easier to hope that they are right for themselves ?
Esther asked why are they behaving like this ? there you go Esther
So they dont have to face these guilty feelings, and reconcile them with the fact I AM A GOOD PERSON, say it three times like the wizard of oz, I AM A GOOD PERSON, I AM A GOOD PERSON, I AM A GOOD PERSON, click your heals and maybe it will come true
Only its getting harder and harder for them to belive it isnt it. desperation is setting in me thinks
I agree, Omerbasket, especially since now, in light of the opinions of these 'scientists', some people with ME/CFS (and presumably a retrovirus) might just feel perfectly free to donate blood now that the 'retrovirus scare' is over. Not every person with our disease follows the developments in the medical research as closely as most of us on these forums do. Maybe there are a good number of people with our disease who only manage to catch snippets here and there about XMRV, and hearing this might very well feel it's safe for them to give blood, or to have unprotected sex or engage in some other activity that could place others at risk. It's entirely possible that someone's doctor happened to catch these articles but isn't following ALL the information on XMRV. Who knows what that doctor might tell his ME/CFS patients now?
As for how this could affect me as a patient, my first appointment with an Infectious Disease doctor is nine days away. I hope and pray he hasn't read this issue of Retrovirology because that will put me in a most unenviable position, trying to explain to him why my refutation of these researchers (who say XMRV is a dead end for ME/CFS causation) should hold any water at all. I can't imagine my doctor taking my word over the word of these researchers.
Exactly Right Stone, So they have there disinformation day dont they. and it affects your future, the media is certainly guilty of misinformation and crimes againt humanity as are some researchers, and goverment decision makers
I have seen several of your posts with a similar theme feeling that some of us are upset over studies that threaten our bias regarding xmrv. That is not what is happening. Challenging every angle is great...we are not upset over scientific process that challenges our hopes. The problem is the UK bias. It has appeared obvious to me all along that the UK is defending some vested interest. I think many feel this way and are reacting with frustration over corruption rather than fear of some great hope (xmrv) being shot down. Of course over reacting to anything (including corruption) is not in our best interests. But the same is true of passively allowing these corrupt institutions to suppress information that may help end this suffering.
IMO, I don't see anyone over reacting in ways detrimental to our cause. What Free At Last said!
retrovirology's reputation as a legit journal is being questioned ever since multiple XMRV- studies were posted in their journal and no XMRV+ were ever posted there. They have become the dumping ground for all -XMRV studies mostly done by british doctors and psychologists.
I don't think they can give you a balanced pro's and con's of both sides because if they are disproven wrong by XMRV+, their journal will crash and burn for choosing the wrong side. You see, they(retrovirology) choose only one side(XMRV-) in this fight by publishing only XMRV-. Ops!
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