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Dr. Mikovits explains why it just cannot be a contamination

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by omerbasket, Dec 20, 2010.

  1. omerbasket

    omerbasket Senior Member

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  2. Jemal

    Jemal Senior Member

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    You gotta also like the statement that experienced researchers understand the limits of PCR technology. If that isn't a sneer...

    It's just too bad it's starting to resemble a boxing match.
     
  3. lancelot

    lancelot Senior Member

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    Quite disheartening to hear Professor Racaniello say in the Chicago tribune, "These four papers are probably the beginning of the end of XMRV and CFS"

    Does it matter what else he says about that statement unless it is to take it back?
     
  4. eric_s

    eric_s Senior Member

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    If i read the entire blog entry and his replies to comments i get a different impression than what i get from just that one sentence.
     
  5. lancelot

    lancelot Senior Member

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    i did. Looks like he's trying to both backtrack and uphold the contamination causation.

    here is just a few posts about his statement:

    #
    Omerbasket [Moderator] 2 hours ago
    Mr. Racaniello. You said in the comments: "There are clearly questions that remained to be addressed". You also said that LNCap cells cannot produce antibodies - and you probably know that the WPI found antibodies to XMRV, and it is published in the Science paper. Meaning that it just cannot be a contamination.
    So why, if you think and know all the above, you told the Chicago Tribune today that "it is the beginning of the end for XMRV"?
    Flag
    4 people liked this. Like Reply Reply
    #

    profvrr [Moderator] 1 hour ago in reply to Omerbasket
    The finding of antibodies does not necessarily disprove contamination
    - there are other explanations. My statement to the Tribune yesterday
    was based on my initial reading of the Retrovirology papers. However
    upon further consideration it is clear that the results of all four
    papers do not challenge the existence of XMRV in patients; rather they
    point out potential pitfalls in doing research on this virus.
    Flag
    Like Reply Reply
    #

    Otis [Moderator] 17 minutes ago in reply to profvrr
    While I appreciate your willingness to reconsider your initial position it makes one wonder about how much effort you apply to appropriate scientific rigor prior to making such comments, blog posts or podcasts. Your statement here does little to undo conclusions based on your previous statement.
     
  6. eric_s

    eric_s Senior Member

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    Wow, i just saw that in the meantime Dr. Klein of the Cleveland Clinic replied to Dr. Racianellos blog and said that they have reported XMRV integration in fresh human tissue. What i hoped for yesterday seems to be happening. By claiming XMRV is not a real human virus those people have now made themselves some very powerful "enemies". They have attacked some of the best. We are very lucky from that point of view, if you look at who now is challenged to defend our position. Klein, Silverman, de Risi (the discoverers of XMRV), Alter... don't look good for them :cool:
     
  7. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Do you have a link to that? That would be great news.
     
  8. eric_s

    eric_s Senior Member

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    Me, personally, i have respect for how Dr. Racianello takes the time to reply to comments on his blog. Of course i don't like to hear something might be the end of XMRV and CFS, but i have no problem with him.
     
  9. eric_s

    eric_s Senior Member

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    With great pleasure :D
    http://www.virology.ws/2010/12/21/is-xmrv-a-laboratory-contaminant/
    A bit less than halfway down in the comments...

    Get them, Eric :tongue:
     
  10. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    This is good news, but I'm still unhappy that his earlier incorrect statement remains in Trine's article without his correction. I suspect she gets bigger readership than does his blog. :Retro mad:
     
  11. urbantravels

    urbantravels disjecta membra

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    There's a real conflict here between the 24/7 news cycle and the need to carefully assess the information in complicated scientific papers before giving an opinion on them. The story unfolding on Dr. R's blog is an interesting one - he's already had to revise his original post numerous times as people come in and clarify/correct. It was exciting to see Eric Klein from the Cleveland Clinic pop up with some critical information about viral integration.

    I'm a big fan of Dr. R., but I wish he wouldn't have made that "beginning of the end" comment to TT before really getting his arms around the claims that were being made in the papers and the arguments against them. Let those among us who have never made a quick comment to a journalist that we later regretted cast the first stone....
     
  12. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Raccaniello has definitely reconsidered his comments to the Tribune author. He is profvrr

    Lombardi and Lo et al identified a human antibody response to a gamma retroviral infection and demonstrated that live gamma retrovirus isolated from human blood could infect human cells in culture. That can't be explained by contamination can it?

    profvrr
    It's possible that some individuals are infected with XMRV or a
    closely related virus. Or that the LNCaP used for co-culture with
    human PBMC were contaminated with XMRV. These are important questions
    that need to be answered.


    But doesn't the demonstration of infectivity in culture by Ruscetti et al directly undermine the claim by Hue et al that the sequences encode an envelope that (as you say) "cannot attach to human cells"?

    profvrr [Moderator]

    Yes, assuming that the virus obtained in culture has the same sequence
    as that deposited in the database. But the WPI sequences in GenBank -
    at least the full length ones - are nearly identical to the De Risi
    isolate which has the MoMLV homology. There are clearly questions that
    remain to be addressed.


    Dr. Yasuhiro Ikeda from the Mayo Clinic reported in a talk from March of this year that he had found some LnCap cell-lines to be infected with XMRV. Is such a cell-line capable of producing antibodies?

    profvrr [Moderator]
    No, LNCap cells cannot produce antibodies.

    Dear Prof Racaniello, I am a follower of your podcasts and blogging, I noted that in the Chicago Tribune you are quoted as saying "These four papers are probably the beginning of the end of XMRV and CFS," although this does seem at odds with the comments in this comment section and the tone of your blog, would you be able to clarify your statement? were you mis quoted in the Chicago Tribune?

    profvrr [Moderator]
    I did make that statement to the Tribune, and followed it with
    comments similar to those in this blog post. I do believe that the
    MoMLV homology is a big problem, but not an impossible one to explain.
    I do not believe that the four Retrovirology papers prove that XMRV is
    not involved in human disease.


    I thought XMRV had been found intergrated into prostate cancer cells? Could that be contamination? Funny how there seems to be a bit of an Atlantic divide on this.

    profvrr
    Silverman and colleagues published a paper in PLoS One in which the
    integration of XMRV into the human prostate cancer cell line DU145 was
    studied. They infect the cells with virus and find viral DNA
    integrated into the genome of the cells. Looking at the paper, I don't
    see any reason to believe that the cells were already infected with
    XMRV, although they don't state that they checked uninfected cells.
    Flag


    Cleveland Clinic - Eric Klein, Cleveland Clinic [Moderator] 2 hours ago in reply to profvrr
    We have reported XMRV integration in fresh frozen prostate tissue taken directly from patients at radical prostatectomy that has never been put in tissue culture and believe this is solid evidence of authentic human infection . See Dong et al PNAS 2007 and Kim et al. J Virol 2008

    So after all this time we don't really have any clear evidence that XMRV is able to infect humans at all? I wonder what Silverman thinks about all this.

    profvrr [Moderator]

    Remember that WPI has found antibodies to XMRV in patient sera, and
    has been able to propagate the virus in cultured cells. So there are
    still issues to be clarified - see my other comment on this issue.
     
  13. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    Sounds Exciting Eric, and exactly my point on a few of the comments, they might just have shot themselves in the foot, with this.In many ways as are being discussed, had a few symptoms today comforting that things look less bleak than 24 hours ago, but thats a big point too isnt it, how easy it is to distress and convince many people ( patients too ) without a full understanding of the science. Something im sure they know damm well will help there slight under hand tactics to help win this argument, because thats what its all about now i feel. You know Eric in many ways from there point of view i think it always has been. So hard to admit so many negative doctors and psychiatrists could all have been so wrong. Now they are fighting for validation of there own belief systems, just like we had ( still have to ) do
    what goes around comes around. Have to belive that.
     
  14. lancelot

    lancelot Senior Member

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    More posts about contamination

    Prof R poorly defending contamination

    #
    Gob987 [Moderator] 2 hours ago
    If patient samples were contaminated at similar rates of between 67 and 85 percent and healthy control samples were contaminated at rates between 3 and 7 percent. Then how did the patient samples get contaminated more than the healthy control samples? Lombardi was a blinded study, I forget about Lo et al.
    Flag
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    #

    profvrr [Moderator] 2 hours ago in reply to Gob987
    That is a question for which there is no answer, but which is
    speculated upon in the two Coffin manuscripts published in
    Retrovirology.
    Flag
    Like Reply Reply
    #

    Poptone_uk [Moderator] 1 hour ago in reply to profvrr
    And that is a cop out answer. It's a simple question. How about a simple answer? How can a supposed contaminant choose to show up in such high numbers in ME/CFS patients and at only around 4% of healthy subjects? And it does this consistently. Surely a contaminant would show up in roughly equal numbers in both sets? Something smells rotten. So an answer then and not an avoiding of the simple question?
    Flag
    5 people liked this. Like Reply Reply
    #

    profvrr [Moderator] 1 hour ago in reply to Poptone_uk
    I'm not avoiding the question, these issues have been discussed
    elsewhere and there is no need to repeat them. It's simply not true
    that a contaminant would show up with equal frequency in controls and
    specimens. For example: if controls and patient samples are collected
    at different times, by different individuals, they can be contaminated
    at different rates. Patient samples also tend to be handled more often
    than controls from a blood bank, for example. In one of the
    Retrovirology papers the frequency of XMRV positives was higher in
    controls than in patient samples - and all were due to contamination.
    There is no simple answer until everyone checks assiduously for
    contamination. That's what these four papers are telling us.
    Flag
    LukeDukem liked this Like Reply Reply
    #

    Poptone_uk [Moderator] 1 hour ago in reply to profvrr
    But in the great majority of studies that returned pretty much the same levels of positives in ME/CFS patients and in the health subjects they weren't just using PCR testing, and also they weren't set out on trying to prove a contamination theory (and that's all it still is), for whatever reasons and for whoever that suits. So, no, your answer doesn't satisfy me. I find it very interesting that you and so others are so hell bent on wanting the contamination theory to be proved right to the extent that you virtually ignore those that offer up totally plausible and provable explanations that this ISN'T contamination. So, just why is that, hmm?
     
  15. eric_s

    eric_s Senior Member

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    I wipe my virtual :mask::Sign Please::innocent1: with Retrovirology

    :eek:

    Sorry, tomorrow i will act normal again... but we say it like that in my country

    Hm?????
     
  16. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    I will Answer that for him. Because their own belief systems will be so damaged when it turns out they could have been so wrong for so long about the condition ME/CFS
    That their whole worldview ( including but not necessarly confined to there egos ) will ALL COME CRASHING DOWN

    Ending in a situation of feelings of guilt (on thier part ) and the horrible horrible feeling that they really may have hurt so many patients for so long.

    That it is too sickening for them to stomach, that indeed they are, and always have been, messengers of pain and suffering to so many.

    Now isnt it easier to hope that they are right for themselves ?

    Esther asked why are they behaving like this ? there you go Esther

    So they dont have to face these guilty feelings, and reconcile them with the fact I AM A GOOD PERSON, say it three times like the wizard of oz, I AM A GOOD PERSON, I AM A GOOD PERSON, I AM A GOOD PERSON, click your heals and maybe it will come true

    Only its getting harder and harder for them to belive it isnt it. desperation is setting in me thinks
     
  17. Stone

    Stone Senior Member

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    I agree, Omerbasket, especially since now, in light of the opinions of these 'scientists', some people with ME/CFS (and presumably a retrovirus) might just feel perfectly free to donate blood now that the 'retrovirus scare' is over. Not every person with our disease follows the developments in the medical research as closely as most of us on these forums do. Maybe there are a good number of people with our disease who only manage to catch snippets here and there about XMRV, and hearing this might very well feel it's safe for them to give blood, or to have unprotected sex or engage in some other activity that could place others at risk. It's entirely possible that someone's doctor happened to catch these articles but isn't following ALL the information on XMRV. Who knows what that doctor might tell his ME/CFS patients now?

    As for how this could affect me as a patient, my first appointment with an Infectious Disease doctor is nine days away. I hope and pray he hasn't read this issue of Retrovirology because that will put me in a most unenviable position, trying to explain to him why my refutation of these researchers (who say XMRV is a dead end for ME/CFS causation) should hold any water at all. I can't imagine my doctor taking my word over the word of these researchers.
     
  18. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    Exactly Right Stone, So they have there disinformation day dont they. and it affects your future, the media is certainly guilty of misinformation and crimes againt humanity as are some researchers, and goverment decision makers
     
  19. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    I have seen several of your posts with a similar theme feeling that some of us are upset over studies that threaten our bias regarding xmrv. That is not what is happening. Challenging every angle is great...we are not upset over scientific process that challenges our hopes. The problem is the UK bias. It has appeared obvious to me all along that the UK is defending some vested interest. I think many feel this way and are reacting with frustration over corruption rather than fear of some great hope (xmrv) being shot down. Of course over reacting to anything (including corruption) is not in our best interests. But the same is true of passively allowing these corrupt institutions to suppress information that may help end this suffering.

    IMO, I don't see anyone over reacting in ways detrimental to our cause. What Free At Last said!
     
  20. lancelot

    lancelot Senior Member

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    retrovirology's reputation as a legit journal is being questioned ever since multiple XMRV- studies were posted in their journal and no XMRV+ were ever posted there. They have become the dumping ground for all -XMRV studies mostly done by british doctors and psychologists.

    I don't think they can give you a balanced pro's and con's of both sides because if they are disproven wrong by XMRV+, their journal will crash and burn for choosing the wrong side. You see, they(retrovirology) choose only one side(XMRV-) in this fight by publishing only XMRV-. Ops!
     

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