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Dr. Marshall on XMRV

Discussion in 'Media, Interviews, Blogs, Talks, Events about XMRV' started by Cort, Nov 17, 2009.

  1. starryeyes

    starryeyes Senior Member

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    I appreciate skepticism. It's healthy. I have some regarding XMRV's connection to CFS myself. I do think Tina has made some very good points here, however. There's really a lot to this that you have to keep in mind to see the big picture.

    Remember too, that Mikovits has always been interested in viral research and the Whittemores and Dr. Peterson were looking for someone like her to carry out viral studies in CFS. It was serendipity that someone at the yacht club where Mikovits was bartending hooked them up. Researchers have been finding a human infectious retrovirus or several different ones in patients with CFS for decades now.

    Why is everyone actually listening this time? That is the question.
  2. Aftermath

    Aftermath Guest

    Journals

    Yes, although we are splitting hairs here.

    The most common measure of respect for scientific journals is Science Gateway's "impact factor".

    When taken in conjunction with page ranking, the top two journals are usually Science and Nature.

    NEJM is very well known among laymen, and is certainly the most prestigious of medical journals.

    Still, Dr. Montoya's paper was not published in NEJM. It was published in the Journal of Clinical Virology. This is a highly respected publication as well, but it is still not on the level of Nature or Science. Again, those two are the biggest in the world--not just in medicine, but in science as a whole.

    This is correct. But where things really go to the next level is with statements out of WPI after the study was completed, implying a causal relationship, connections to other diseases, etc. It's basically the scientific equivalent in Texas hold 'em poker of going all in--a hell of a big gamble.

    Let me close by saying that once again, I really hope that the folks at WPI are right about this one.
  3. fresh_eyes

    fresh_eyes happy to be here

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    Well said. I find this encouraging, that people are all staking their careers (and, in the Whitttemores' case, millions of dollars) on this.
  4. oerganix

    oerganix Senior Member

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    PhDs are called Dr

    I'd just like to say, one more time, that Dr. Marshall has never tried to pass himself off as an MD, and it would be nice if folks would stop repeating that misinformation, whatever else you may not like about his personality or his protocol.

    Does it bother you that DR John Coffin is not an MD? Does it bother you that DR Judy Mikovits is not an MD? Shall we commence calling them MR Coffin and MS Mikovits, to emphasize our disrespect for their non-MD status? We are talking about researchers folks. With some notable exceptions, research does not usually come from MDs. Dr. Marshall's protocol is a research effort, using real human volunteers, instead of the usual bio-engineered MICE. As I am a human being, not a mouse, I appreciate this fact. His theories about L-form bacteria are built upon similar work by others. His ideas did not come out of thin air. By the way, there are MDs and RNs on the protocol. Dr Greg Blaney of Canada is one name I remember. Many of the moderators are RNs. Cultists and idiots? I don't think so.

    And if you think excessive consumption of vitamin D is without risk, you should do your own homework. There is research, unrelated to CFS, that excessive amounts of vitamin D leads to bone reabsorption, as in osteoporosis. And if you think you're not getting vitamin D in your food, I challenge you to examine the foods in your cupboard and refrigerator and write down the % of daily recommended IUs that is added to so much food. Milk, cereals, bread and almost all processed foods have added vitamin D. So even if you are not getting the 10 minutes a day of sunshine on your skin that it takes to manufacture your own vitamin D, you are still getting it in your diet. Trying to avoid vitamin D while on the MP is difficult. Trying to find a multivitamin without D is hard, and expensive when you find it. Much of the "natural" vitamin D being sold is fish oil, or derived from fish oil, which, you should know by now, is loaded with mercury and other heavy metals. And I saw one D supplement advertised for $100 for a bottle of 60, so, for those who think more expensive = better, it isn't cheap either.

    Because vitamin D is a seco-steroid, a hormone, it can make you feel better in the short run, like taking any other steroid, but harm your immune system in the long run. Like salt, we all need a little, and like salt, too much of anything can harm you; like salt, way too much could contribute to your death.

    As for the current ad campaign the supplement industry is engaged in reporting "research" that proves vitamin D is the new miracle supplement, I suggest anyone who is interested in the truth of such "research" do their own homework. I haven't the time, energy or inclination to educate you on this. This bogus "research" is bought and paid for by the supplement manufacturers and deciminated in a very systematic and calculated way. It is then repeated by copy-cat "journalists".

    In researching what work I might be able to do online, I also came across companies that pay bloggers to tout products online on public forums. They pay by the number of "insertions" you are able to put out there, and additionally by the number of responses you get to your posts. Some companies have participants who are organized by "teams", who sometimes respond to each other's posts, to up the number of responses on these forums. This is way too unethical for me, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who will do what they feel they have to, to earn money.
  5. lebowski

    lebowski

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    E.E marshall

    "I haven't the time, energy or inclination to educate you on this."

    dont even try, no one will buy it .. ur post is full with logical errors and i think some of them r intentional errors like giving irrelevant information as evidence of ur case and i think ppl recognize this .. and sorry i dont have the time and energy to analyse those errors in ur post , i just want to say it is immoral to give misinformation to people on forums .. and also it is a shame to use the title doctor on a medical board while u r an electric engineer ..
  6. zoe.a.m.

    zoe.a.m. Senior Member

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    oerganix

    Interesting info about the "insertions." I have no doubt that much "research" about the latest miracle supplement is nothing more than of passing interest and certainly bought and paid for. Vitamin D still stands out as a supplement which has been around long enough so that it's cheap and available. This isn't to say it is black and white as is being touted, or that it isn't, just that it's not something coming onto the market at $40-$100/bottle for a month's supply.

    With the Vitamin D in many foods: I have my doubts that it is any more bioavailable than hundreds of vitamins and minerals in the food supply. In terms of the fish oils, I think most people are buying either flax oils or fish oils that have gone through processes to remove any contaminants. The quality of supplementation is always extremely important; I would not be a proponent of taking lipids that have not been cleaned. If anything, lipids are the area to be most concerned with.

    I certainly won't speak for anyone else on the thread, but what I hear is not so much a criticism that Dr. Marshall isn't an MD, but that his PhD is outside of the realm of his protocol. This isn't so with Mikovits or Coffin. Since Marshall's protocol can only be implemented by others with the MD credential--it makes it more concerning that he does not have an advanced degree closer to home, so to speak.
  7. oerganix

    oerganix Senior Member

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    Professor Trevor Marshall

    Since his original PhD studies were about computer modeling of insulin in diabetis and his subsequent research has also been in biomedicine, I don't see that as a valid reason for the intense disrespect and hostility he, and those who have tried the MP, have been shown in this thread, by people who really know little or nothing about research or medicine. What I saw here was a piling on of the schoolyard bully sort of response. Dr. Marshall is not a Dr Reeves, Wessley, etc. He is on our side, whether he is correct or not. He was the first to explain to my satisfaction the possible reasons for the "psychiatric" symptoms associated with CFS. Not to say there aren't/weren't others explaining it, too.

    Since Murdoch University in Perth Australia employs Dr Marshall as an Assistant Professor in the School of Biological Sciences and Biotechnology, I am guessing they know more about his qualifications for biomedical research than most of us. But, I could be wrong.

    Since he has chaired and co-chaired sessions at both the 2008 and the 2009 International Conference on Autoimmunity, in Portugal and Slovenia the last two years, it would appear there are other scientists who will at least listen to what he has to say about the VDR nuclear receptor and the agonist, olmesartan, in what are currently described as "autoimmune diseases".

    Since he has been invited to speak at other conferences in Singapore, China, and the Czech Republic, on subjects including biotech and autoimmunity, characterizing him as a "charlatan" on this forum is misinformation at the very least.

    I, too, was disappointed at his knee-jerk dismissal of XRMV research (like a lot of others in the CFS field, he thinks his answers are the only possible ones), but it still remains to be seen whether XRMV is what we/I hope it is. And if all the speculation by Drs. Judy and Nancy and Dan turn out to be totally correct, we may still have to deal with bacterial infections that have taken advantage of our corrupted immune systems. And I think that people who have already dealt with bacterial infections may have an easier time of it on whatever antiviral treatment they may come up with. Time will tell.
  8. SDD1244

    SDD1244 Guest

    Thank you, oerganix. I could be wrong, but I think it was Tony who wrote earlier in this thread that he knew people on the MP and how they did. The results, IMO, were actually quite impressive.
  9. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I guess I missed that, but with all due respect, where in this thread has anyone claimed that Dr. Marshall has 'tried to pass himself off as an MD'? They may have said 'he's not an MD', but I doubt they said he was trying to pass himself off as one.

    Nope. Personally I prefer ND's, and other forms of alternative medicine/healing, but also appreciate MD's for their contributions.

    I don't think so either. It should be noted however, that many of the past moderators were also RN's and others in the health field...

    Again, where has anyone here said that 'excessive consumption of vitamin D is without risk'? Please copy and paste their post.

    I can only speak for myself, but even when I drank two glasses of milk a day, that provided only 200IU's of D, half the RDA. I don't eat processed frankenfoods, but would guess the other chemicals, artificial colors, flavors, that make up the dozens of ingredients may be more harmful than the miniscule amount of vitamin d, that is even if they added D3, instead of synthetic D2. I respectfully challenge you to post a study to back up your claims that our diets are providing "excessive" amounts of vitamin D. Seriously...if it's out there, we should see it.

    And of course everyone should always talk to their doctor and run tests before supplementing with vitamin d.

    Yes, some fish oils may certainly be contaminated with mercury, but to make a blanket statement suggesting (all) fish oil is "loaded" with mercury, is factually untrue, unless you can provide a link that suggests otherwise.

    A link to that $100 bottle(???) of 60 capsules of vitamin D would be nice too. Most pharmaceutical-grade vitamin D3 (5,000iu's) sells for around $15.00, hardly a money-maker, especially compared to pharmaceuticals. 1,000iu's, 60 caps, sells for anywhere from $5-7.

    Naturally taking too much of anything is dangerous. Who on this thread is saying we should literally take "way too much"? I'm baffled by your statements.

    Oerganix...you have the time to write two very long threads to "educate (us) on this", but cannot provide a study that supports the basic science that normal levels of vitamin D is beneficial to a host of diseases -- one that can show it was 'bought and paid for by the supplement manufacturers'?

    I guess I've missed that "current ad campaign". If anything, your statement certainly applies to the pharmaceutical industry that advertises 24/7, especially during the news. I must be watching the wrong channel as I have yet to see a SINGLE commercial promoting vitamin D on television, let alone a 'campaign'.

    I've seen those sites too. They pay literally pennies, and that's only if the responses one gets results in a sale. Hardly an incentive to promote anything, let alone vitamin D. That's why drug companies hire highly paid lobbyists and ad agencies to promote their products, and sponsor studies to back up their claims.
  10. SDD1244

    SDD1244 Guest

  11. Vitamin D at large doses is know to have anti inflammatory actions and be beneficial for Asthma. I II
  12. SDD1244

    SDD1244 Guest

    Vitamin D is not a true vitamin... it is a seco-steriod hormone instead. So that explains why I felt better (temporarily) while taking it and then later... worse. I don't know about the other members here, but when I had muscle testing done, my body did NOT want Vitamin D. In addition, I have photophobia. So not that I'm just going along with Marshall's (and others, including Paul Cheney, Ph.D) research... I'm trusting my own personal experiences and my body instead.
  13. Lily

    Lily *Believe*

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    Insurance compainies and asthma

    I promise you insurance companies do not think past the dollars and people with asthma cost money - a lot of money. The thought process goes no further than that. You'd be amazed how shallow the actual medical knowledge is within health care insurance companies.....
  14. Sheesh!

    Sheesh! Guest

    After going through an intense bout of CFS and MCS related flu-like symptoms, I often had prolonged asthma. If I took a steroid shot, not only did my asthma disappear, but my energy shot up.

    My brother who died of congestive heart failure was addicted to milk. Literally addicted. Heard of steroid addiction?

    It was only after learning all about "vitamin" D that I understood the addiction. He had been self medicating himself... to death.

    Read the paper on Asthma... it's not Marshall's. It was published this month.

    DannyBex, before saying someone did not say Marshall held himself out as a Doctor, as a way to undercut someone's posting, try checking the thread. You may not find those exact words, but not only was it said once, it was said twice. That's why I responded to it and why oreganix followed up with more information about Marshall. Most people do not know that his prior research has been in the medical field.
  15. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Sheesh,

    I didn't say someone did not say Marshall held himself out to be a doctor. I just asked Oreganix to confirm his/her statement that "Dr. Marshall has never tried to pass himself off as an MD, and it would be nice if folks would stop repeating that misinformation".

    Checking the first page of this thread, I saw people were commenting that the "Dr." in front of his name may lead some patients to mistakenly believe he's an MD. That's considerably different from saying that people on this thread are "repeating" misinformation that "he's tried to pass himself off as a doctor", when in fact, no one has said "he's tried to pass himself off as a doctor" even once in this thread.

    I mean absolutely no disrespect towards Oreganix or anyone, and I certainly understand the passion on both sides. I just think everyone should take a deep breath and try to be a little more careful (including my brain-fogged self!) when posting criticisms about comments that were never made.

    d.
  16. SDD1244

    SDD1244 Guest


    "Rising asthma rates may be partly explained by bacterial imbalances in our guts."

    source:
    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/07/internal-bacter/


    You know one thing that I can think that everyone agree on, including every physician, is the fact that all of these illnesses (autoimmune, diabetes, autism, allergies, food intolerances, chemical sensitivities, ADD, Alzheimers and ALS) are rising and/or expected to rise. Clearly, we are doing something very wrong when it comes to not only understanding the cause of these diseases and/or appropriate treatments. The pharmaceutical companies are making a fortune off of chronically ill people by simply treating their symptoms (palliative care), rather than searching for cures. Isn't it interesting how we came up for vaccines for Smallpox and other diseases before the greedy CEO's took over the pharmaceutical companies ? And now, 81% of Americans are taking at least one prescription drug.
  17. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Yes. I TOTALLY AGREE. Drug companies would go out of business if they actually came up with 'cures'. Addressing the causes (like food intolerances, chemical sensitivities (including the many chemicals IN the foods), mold, pesticide and other environmental exposures, etc.) should be looked at in every case of chronic illness, IMHO.

    Can you believe it? We actually agree! :)
  18. oerganix

    oerganix Senior Member

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    The latest misrepresentation of Dr Marshall and the MP

    "I'm also still very concerned about the whole concept of a closed treatment protocol without supervision by MDs and with very believable and disturbing stories about many aspects of Dr Marshall's behaviour (a PhD advertising himself as a doctor in a medical context being a pretty big one); I wasn't aware of any of this background when I posted and I'm pretty sure many of these aspects are rightly illegal in much of the rest of the world. So I'm still very concerned indeed about what I've read." (quoting Mark)

    As stated more than once in this thread by people who are knowledgable about it (as opposed to repeating gossip and rumor), the MP and the MP site is a research effort, with volunteers who are told from the very beginning that they need to have an MD or an OD supervising and prescribing, AND that Dr Marshall is not an MD.

    Dannybex, is that statement "a PhD advertising himself as a doctor in a medical context" not the same as saying he is "passing himself off as a doctor"? Dr. Marshall has not tried to deceive anyone on this point so why keep saying, or insinuating, that he has? There are 4 other posts pointing out that he is not a "doctor". Is there some evidence that he doesn't have the PhD he says he has? Has he also fooled the University in Australia where he is on the faculty for biomedical research?

    He's also been accused here of being a "charlatan", only in it for money, the head of a "cult" and a "windbag with the scientific curiosity of a plate of ...omelet." I have not seen similar nasty attacks on the many "way out" theories/treatments on this site. When Sheesh replied in kind to these nasty posts he was accused of being nasty.

    Enough of the double standard.
  19. Katie

    Katie Guest

    The bold one was mine. I did personally write to Sheesh so I'm not going to go back to that (page 5) but I will stand by my somewhat colourful comment. Maybe it's a little childish, I like to think it was amusing, but based on reading Marshall's complete knock back of the XMRV research without any follow up research, and his sarcastic remarks regarding how to annoy the publishers at Science, I stand by my comment. He did come across the way I described.

    I haven't kept up totally with his thread, I just scan it every now and then and happened to see my bit mentioned. I've said my piece.
  20. oerganix

    oerganix Senior Member

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    Dr Marshall's scientific curiosity

    Katie perhaps, then, you did not read my earlier post, which ought to address your contention that he has the scientific curiosity of an omelet:

    "Since his original PhD studies were about computer modeling of insulin in diabetis and his subsequent research has also been in biomedicine, I don't see that as a valid reason for the intense disrespect and hostility he, and those who have tried the MP, have been shown in this thread, by people who really know little or nothing about research or medicine. What I saw here was a piling on of the schoolyard bully sort of response. Dr. Marshall is not a Dr Reeves, Wessley, etc. He is on our side, whether he is correct or not. He was the first to explain to my satisfaction the possible reasons for the "psychiatric" symptoms associated with CFS. Not to say there aren't/weren't others explaining it, too.

    Since Murdoch University in Perth Australia employs Dr Marshall as an Assistant Professor in the School of Biological Sciences and Biotechnology, I am guessing they know more about his qualifications for biomedical research than most of us. But, I could be wrong.

    Since he has chaired and co-chaired sessions at both the 2008 and the 2009 International Conference on Autoimmunity, in Portugal and Slovenia the last two years, it would appear there are other scientists who will at least listen to what he has to say about the VDR nuclear receptor and the agonist, olmesartan, in what are currently described as "autoimmune diseases".

    Since he has been invited to speak at other conferences in Singapore, China, and the Czech Republic, on subjects including biotech and autoimmunity, characterizing him as a "charlatan" on this forum is misinformation at the very least."

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