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Dr Les Simpson...Able to Identify CFS by Blood Cell Shape

Forbin

Senior Member
Messages
966
I'm sure I'm not the first to wonder if there could be a connection between this observation of altered RBC shape and the observations of low erythrocyte sedimentation rates (ESR) that is sometimes seen in ME/cfs patients.

Since normal ESR ranges from 0 to 22 (men) and 0 to 29 (women), it's not exactly possible to have a "subnormal" ESR rate. However, low ESR is associated with some diseases, including sickle cell anemia (in which the shape of the RBC's is altered).

My ESR after onset was apparently interesting enough (3) that the technician double-underlined it and put an exclamation point next to it.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
I remember this from years back.

It should be easy enough to check by using samples from the biobank, surely? Isn't it just a question of looking down a microscope?

What happened to this, @charles shepherd? Do you remember? Is it worth anyone pursuing now?
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
According to Les Simpson the blood cells had to be fixed as soon as they were drawn.

It still sounds like a cheap study, potentially. IiME are doing a gut microbiome study at the moment, with PWME vs healthy controls - it would be easy enough to take some extra blood and fix it, you'd think.

@charles shepherd, is there anyone with an interest in following this up? Did it look worth it?
 
Messages
55
Location
Auckland, NZ
I sent a vile of my blood to him way back when in '01. Same day shipping - Auckland to Dunedin.

It showed a high value for flat cells - 75.6%. Average male is at 44.2% - from a NZ study.

I knew a woman whose flat cells were in the mid 80s. Average female from the study is at 43.6%. She was sicker than me.

I remember emailing him about it all - unfortunately I have lost everything except the report he sent me some 13-14 years ago now.

He was a tremendous help to me when I first fell ill - I can't stress this enough. I wouldn't have finished my degree without him.

We could do with more of his ilk - knowledgeable and empathetic. I just wish the old bean was younger. :D
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Interesting thread, I hadn't read about this before but had an interest in this as when my sister got sick her CFS symptoms (she may of been sick for around a year at this point) she was to a naturopath who looked her blood under a microscope and told her there was something wrong with her RBC (I cant remember now if it was mostly they weren't normal shape or they were enlarged??).

My sister also had something else floating around in her blood which shouldn't have been there (I forget what was described).

I'd planned go and get mine looked at but never have had a chance.
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
975
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
hi,
could be.
surely to god all the boffins would have identified this by now.
its basic haematology.....maybe too simplistic for them.
maybe thats why dilators work so well....lets the fat and odd shaped RBC into circulation.
 

Seven7

Seven
Messages
3,444
Location
USA
in all my bllod test says that I have some irreglurar blood shape. but says a few. I keep asking and they say by itself doest mean anything (Like I don't have 500 other irregularities).
 

maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,602
Location
UK
My MCV always tests high out of range, like someone says could it really be a one of the markers for ME/CFS. Also very low ESR...
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
If this is true which I strongly doubt, I don’t think it would count as a biomarker as other conditions might show this.

As @gregh286, states, this would be something readily apparent with just a simple bloodtest.

Barb
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
975
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
If this is true which I strongly doubt, I don’t think it would count as a biomarker as other conditions might show this.

As @gregh286, states, this would be something readily apparent with just a simple bloodtest.

Barb

Problem with shape counts is its subjective. Maybe thats why its not a recognised methodology.
Could still be highly valid.
Would go some ways to explain high lactate levels and poor exercise tolerance.
Anyone got lances' number for some.EPO??
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
975
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
Hi @Jonathan Edwards
What is your.take on dr simpsons theory of high flat red cell values and low concave counts in cfs/me.
Would certainly account for such atrocious aerobic capacity.....high d lactate....PEM etc.
Was is ever disproved i wonder?
Just another form of hypoxia we have.

Would support the work of proffesor julia newton on muscle acidosis.etc

Thanks for your inputs.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Hi @Jonathan Edwards
What is your.take on dr simpsons theory of high flat red cell values and low concave counts in cfs/me.
Would certainly account for such atrocious aerobic capacity.....high d lactate....PEM etc.
Was is ever disproved i wonder?
Just another form of hypoxia we have.

Would support the work of proffesor julia newton on muscle acidosis.etc

Thanks for your inputs.

I have not heard anyone talking about this. It does not seem very plausible at first glance. High viscosity occurs with red cell abnormalities in a variety of conditions but none of them are like ME. The most obvious one is sickle cell disease. Small vessel perfusion problems have been studied by Jill Belch and her group in Dundee and Fluge and Mella have been interested in this so maybe there is something to it, but I think if there was then Dundee would have repeated the findings by now.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Would it not have more to do with a lack of deformability rather than deformed red blood cells.

There's a lot of parallels drawn between ME/CFS and Diabetes. I see with Diabetes there is some consideration being given to it involving the inability of red blood cells to deform, the same as in sickle cell disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26071649

I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere that it could also have something to do with rigidity of the cell walls adding a viscous factor to microvascular blood flow and impairing vasodilation.
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
There's a lot of parallels drawn between ME/CFS and Diabetes. I see with Diabetes there is some consideration being given to it involving the inability of red blood cells to deform, the same as in sickle cell disease.

I'm not that familiar with diabetes but how are me/cfs and diabetes comparable?
 

rosie26

Senior Member
Messages
2,446
Location
NZ
I think there is something in this as well regarding the blood vessel walls. But the unusual viscosity is affecting other epithelial layers around other parts of the body as well in the epithelial and mucosa layers and this is contributing to the dehydration we feel (I think) and heat + nightsweats. But this also is happening in the epithelial and mucosal areas of the gut, sinuses and all others - that's how it feels to me but this is just from my own experience and signs in the body.

Permanent/reset changes in epithelial layers and mucosa which is dysregulating the immune system and then setting off the CNS. Clumping and viscosity sounds about right and that's not normal - that would be making the body work hard to clear, exhausting stuff for the immune system. Over-production of something. So something tipped the balance at the beginning and changed homeostasis.
 
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