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    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

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Dr Jack Kruse's explanation of what CFS is

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Jack's advise was to MOVE, and his supporters put it more rudely than that. See my thread on the forums https://forum.jackkruse.com/index.php?threads/hi-from-cloudy-manchester-uk.19476/page-2

From the thread; a golden shower of words:

Photons of light come to Earth in a timeless state and cells use dopamine and melatonin to make time once light hits them in cells. It turns out melatonin is capable of suspending time during sleep because it rebuilds heteroplastic mitochondria using electrostatics and the link to magnetism and the building of a DC electric current from sunlight and water.
Are you not entertained?
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
@Basilico I understand people still have CFS even in "good" locations. I just wander how good they are. I have seen images of comcasts wifi hotspots/etc and florida is absolutely full of them, even on the beach. Australia has ozone problems.

Maybe moving to an EMF free, strong sunlight area won't be a cure. I can't rest the thought unless I try it though...
 

TreePerson

Senior Member
Messages
292
Location
U.K.
@justy @Basilico going back a few years when I was stronger I found the sun helped. It added to my energy capacity - I reckon by about 25%. And some of my best years have been the sunniest (I live in the UK). But now I am at a much lower level I don't find it helps at all and it sometimes makes me worse. So no not a cure but I do think can be helpful to some people at some stages of the illness. And I suppose the peace and quiet of the countryside, its sounds, like the sea are soothing.
 

A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
Are you not entertained?

I feel a little guilty for saying this, but yes.

Jack Kruse said:
Change comes fastest to those people who are capable of unlearning and relearning. People who do not listen to feedback, will not be able to pivot based on changing circumstances, because they refuse to acknowledge reality. This is tied to a low dopamine state.

More like, they're not schizophrenic, psychotic , or whatever it is he's sufering from.
 

keenly

Senior Member
Messages
814
Location
UK
That is one toxic thread - nasty all round.

As I said above I will look at moving somewhere for a while to see what happens. BUT and its a big but, some of us are so sick we cant really move, or have family - I have 4 kids - what am I going to do? pack them all up with money from the magic money tree and go and live in southern spain with 4 kids and no income - interesting approach if I want to max out the stress in my life!

Exactly! I still want to punch the guy who called me a liar for saying it was impossible to move.

That being said, we need sunlight. Our cells need it.
 

keenly

Senior Member
Messages
814
Location
UK
I post over there and have received the same response in regards to moving. Most of it is well meaning but some of it is patronizing. The problem is, most people on there assume you are reasonably healthy, or at least enough to support yourself in another country, and even if you say you are not, some people just ignore it and continue anyway. Having said that, there is also a lot of good information in those forums and who knows, maybe we won't get better if we can't move...

:thumbsup::bang-head:
 

keenly

Senior Member
Messages
814
Location
UK
I read Kruse's responses on his forum. I guess he thinks people can just pack up and move to a sunny location. What an arrogant big headed puff he is. I wonder if part of his 'business' is selling time shares in Spain or Florida

He is right, but the way he expresses it is very rude and obnoxious, quite demeaning in fact. I think he is a first class c U next Tuesday.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,561
Location
Seattle
So you think humans were meant to be indoors, surrounded by blue light? Is that a good environment for mitochondria to function? You do not think nnEMF causing calcium efflux?

Humans have been living in some form of a house or home for hundreds of thousands of years. You know, to protect themselves from the elements, to warm themselves near a fire. Of course it's common sense that if one can, one should try to get out in nature whenever possible, but to suggest humans weren't meant to be indoors is just, well, narrow-minded.

And who in the world is 'surrounded by blue light indoors? Sure, many of us may be on our computers too late at night which can mess with circadian rhythms, but "surrounded"?

No, I do not believe EMFs are causing calcium efflux. Multiple studies have shown that what patients believe are effects from EMFs are actually their beliefs (the 'nocebo' effect) that are causing the effects:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19681059

"46 blind or double-blind provocation studies in all, involving 1175 IEI-EMF volunteers, have tested whether exposure to electromagnetic fields is responsible for triggering symptoms in IEI-EMF. No robust evidence could be found to support this theory. However, the studies included in the review did support the role of the nocebo effect in triggering acute symptoms in IEI-EMF sufferers. Despite the conviction of IEI-EMF sufferers that their symptoms are triggered by exposure to electromagnetic fields, repeated experiments have been unable to replicate this phenomenon under controlled conditions."

http://www.jpsychores.com/article/S0022-3999(12)00335-2/abstract

"Participants (N=147) were randomly assigned to watch a television report about the adverse health effects of WiFi (n=76) or a control film (n=71). After watching their film, participants received a sham exposure to a WiFi signal (15 min). 82 (54%) of the 147 participants reported symptoms which they attributed to the sham exposure."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity

"A systematic review in 2005 showed no convincing scientific evidence for symptoms being caused by electromagnetic fields.[2] Since then, several double-blind experiments have shown that people who report electromagnetic hypersensitivity are unable to detect the presence of electromagnetic fields and are as likely to report ill health following a sham exposure as they are following exposure to genuine electromagnetic fields, suggesting the cause in these cases to be the nocebo effect."

Evelyn from the Carb-Sane blog explains it better than I can, and most concisely in her answers in the comments section:

"The internal EMF in our mitochondria/cells are electro-motive forces from separation of charge across a membrane. The external EMF is electro-magnetic field. If fields could alter cellular EMFs we'd all be dead!"

"Jack thrives on mumbo jumbo and that most just don't have the background to know how out there he is. If EMF did what he said, there wouldn't be MRIs or they would kill!"

http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/03/quantum-bullshit.html

@brenda, I'm sincerely glad you're doing better, but as others have pointed out, getting some sunlight and walking barefoot and eating more fish, etc., is kind of common sense advice that will generally help most of us. If we could get out that is. Anyway, I hope your improvements continue. :)

And by the way, I do know of one other person on the forums who has benefited from his 'cold thermogenesis'.
 
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sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
to suggest humans weren't meant to be indoors is just, well, narrow-minded.

I would suggest the opposite is true. To suggest the amount of time we spend indoors today is even remotely comparable to over the course of human history is narrow minded.

No, I do not believe EMFs are causing calcium efflux. Multiple studies have shown that what patients believe are effects from EMFs are actually their beliefs (the 'nocebo' effect) that are causing the effects:

I think it's more complicated. You have to look at modulated vs unmodulated and other such factors. I am no expert, I don't understand how it works, but there are hundreds of papers done by many different researches that say there is a link between nnEMF and negative effects.

It's in the interest of big business to be on the side of EMFs are safe. Add to that to researches with egos and you get a big mess.

No money needed until he sucks you in. $1,500 magnetic mattresses anyone? If you hurry, you'll get Jack's 15% "discount"!

Guess I'm a sucker. I bought one and it helped my sleep and energy levels. Although I'm sure you will say it's placebo.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,561
Location
Seattle
I would suggest the opposite is true. To suggest the amount of time we spend indoors today is even remotely comparable to over the course of human history is narrow minded.

Conveniently left out of your quote was my acknowledgement that of course time spent outdoors whenever possible is beneficial to one's health. Perhaps my wording wasn't the best, but my point was that millions, if not billions live in houses/homes -- with electricity too -- and aren't chronically ill from EMFs as a result.

I think it's more complicated. You have to look at modulated vs unmodulated and other such factors. I am no expert, I don't understand how it works, but there are hundreds of papers done by many different researches that say there is a link between nnEMF and negative effects.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=nnEMF+health&btnG=&as_sdt=1,48&as_sdtp=

It's in the interest of big business to be on the side of EMFs are safe. Add to that to researches with egos and you get a big mess.

It's always a good idea to consider corporate interests, motivations, etc.. But it's also wise to consider the overall evidence, not to mention the obvious, as noted above. The population of the US alone is 320 million, all interacting with electormagnetic fields every single day (and night) of their lives, yet an estimated 1.5 to 2 million have ME/CFS.

Think of the doctors, nurses and staff in hospitals that literally ARE surrounded by EMFs from catscans, MRIs, computers and other monitoring equipment every day of their lives. They're a hell of a lot stronger than any of us, and not one of them has backed up Kruse's strange (and profitable) ideas.

IGuess I'm a sucker. I bought one and it helped my sleep and energy levels. Although I'm sure you will say it's placebo.

The placebo response is very real.

For example, placebo surgery was compared to two common forms of surgery for osteoarthritis of the knee, and was found to be just as effective. The authors of the study concluded:

"If the efficacy of arthroscopic lavage or débridement in patients with osteoarthritis of the knee is no greater than that of placebo surgery, the billions of dollars spent on such procedures annually might be put to better use."

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa013259#t=article

The same for spinal surgery:

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/aug/06/science/sci-spine6

And depression:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/

...and on and on.
 

A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
The placebo response is very real.

For example, placebo surgery was compared to two common forms of surgery for osteoarthritis of the knee, and was found to be just as effective. The authors of the study concluded:

"If the efficacy of arthroscopic lavage or débridement in patients with osteoarthritis of the knee is no greater than that of placebo surgery, the billions of dollars spent on such procedures annually might be put to better use."

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa013259#t=article

It means the tested surgery interventions are ineffective, not that a placebo surgery has healing power.
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
Conveniently left out of your quote was my acknowledgement that of course time spent outdoors whenever possible is beneficial to one's health. Perhaps my wording wasn't the best, but my point was that millions, if not billions live in houses/homes -- with electricity too -- and aren't chronically ill from EMFs as a result.

I was specifically referring to the part where you said that people lived a lot of time indoors throughout our history. If I misinterpreted this, I apologist.

I'm not saying anyone who lives near nnEMF will get CFS, I am saying it could well be a large contributing factor. Eg if you lived near nnEMF and got little natural light it could well negatively effect your immune system, then when you get a virus that normal people recover from, you don't.


I don't think this link works as you intend it to.

If you are trying to show me studies that say emf is harmless then I counter with studies that say the opposite. There are hundred of them that say it has biological effects. I acknowledge that there are also hundreds that say it's harmless but at the very least it has to be said that it's a contested issue, not one that has been solved long ago as the scientific institutions would have you believe.

The population of the US alone is 320 million, all interacting with electormagnetic fields every single day (and night) of their lives, yet an estimated 1.5 to 2 million have ME/CFS.

I strongly suspect that sensitivity to EMFs is a product of your current mitochondrial function is specific areas of your body. Therefore it will effect some more than others, and some in different ways than others.

The placebo response is very real.

I understand this, but, I have tried many (some real expensive) things over the last 6yrs, 95%+ do not work. Why haven't I being placeboing myself before and after magnetico? You could say cost made me want it to work more so I believed but I have had other costly things where nothing happened. I have also had my hopes put in to this and that where I was like "of course I have figured it out, it's x all along" then I try x and nadda.

I understand that I could have still placebo'd myself but I think it is a cop out explanation for something you don't want to believe. I had a doctor tell me that any improvement I noticed from red light was placebo despite it being proven again and again in literature that it works. They do this because it's convenient to explain away anything that doesn't fit their beliefs.
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
Kruse's strange (and profitable) ideas

You have mentioned this a few times. I have been following Kruse since 2011. I had major benefits from his ideas without paying 1p. In around 2014 I bought a magnetico, meaning Kruse will have got a kick back from that, and last year I have bought a quantlet, which kruse would also have earned money from. However I have had the most benefits following kruses advice, which I have got from his FREE content, than I have from the things I've purchased. Most of the time Kruse doesnt recomend brands and ALL of the time he is against supplementation. He is continually saying in his blogs and podcasts to not give these people money and to ground in the sun because it's free.

I think this is an unfair characterization.