Dr Jack Kruse's explanation of what CFS is

[Wonko]

@sb4

Okay, I assume you're referring to mitochondria in general then, which gives me serious doubts as to the validity. I was under the impression that cells have several control mechanisms specifically to keeps ATP under control, to reduce ATP function (and generation) to situations where it is both needed and can be controlled, I would question if in vitro research like this would carry across to in vivo situations. I'd also question just how much red light can actually pass through the skin, body etc to actually get to the mitos, and I'd again bring up the whole issue of has this been tested on mitos from pwME (vs those without), which mitos, in serum or not etc.

I am still working on the paper linked, to be more precise I am working on how to reply about it, amongst other things it seems to contain a surprising amount of 1940's theories and metaphysics doesn't it - for a modern paper.

 

[lansbergen]

"Grounding reduces pain and alters the numbers of circulating neutrophils and lymphocytes

In what way? Lower, higher? And what about chemotaxis?

 

[sb4]

@Wonko Well here is a red light paper to sink your teeth into https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996814/

I understand too much ATP being detrimental and you absolutely can overdose red light however used properly you can get the extra ATP and the other benefits to mito it brings. It is very difficult to OD on natural light with red.

As for penetration it goes 10-30cm deep apparently. I have a 70w red led that goes straight through my fingers such that I can see my overwise invisible finger veins, its pretty cool actually.

 

[sb4]

In what way? Lower, higher? And what about chemotaxis?

It says in the paper I linked.

"As expected, the white cell counts increased in the ungrounded or control subjects. White cell counts in the grounded subjects steadily decreased following the injury (Figure 7).7"

"Previous research has shown increases in neutrophils following injury.13–16 This happened in both grounded and ungrounded subjects (Figure 8), although neutrophil counts were always lower in the grounded subjects.7"

"As the number of neutrophils increases, lymphocytes are expected to decrease.17–19 In the DOMS study, the lymphocyte count in the grounded subjects was always below the ungrounded subjects (Figure 9).7"

EDIT: dont know what chemotaxis are.

 

[lansbergen]

EDIT: dont know what chemotaxis are.

In short, the travel of immune cells to the place they are needed.

 

[Wonko]

@sb4

This will do

That paper (and as far as I can see most others in the area of grounding) was sponsored by Earth FX Inc - a company that sells earthing stuff - in fact 2 of the authors have shares in it (in the papers footnotes under disclosures).

A quick google gives this as a rebuttal to the claims made.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/earthing/

and possibly this

http://www.criticalcactus.com/health-benefits-of-earthing-grounded-in-science/

There are probably a lot more results but that'll do, saves me a lot of figuring out how to say things and also typing.

 

[lansbergen]

In the DOMS study, the lymphocyte count in the grounded subjects was always below the ungrounded subjects

I do not want less. I want good functioning ones at the place they are needed.

 

[gettinbetter]

The reason I have stuck with him so long is because his stuff helps.

How did it help you?
I have tried grounding and it helped me go to sleep so will try it again.

Instead of condescending jokes please state exactly what you disagree with so discussion can be had. If you disagree with all of it just select one area so we can examine it.

I would like to know too

 

[sb4]

@sb4

This will do

That paper (and as far as I can see most others in the area of grounding) was sponsored by Earth FX Inc - a company that sells earthing stuff - in fact 2 of the authors have shares in it (in the papers footnotes under disclosures).

A quick google gives this as a rebuttal to the claims made.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/earthing/

and possibly this

http://www.criticalcactus.com/health-benefits-of-earthing-grounded-in-science/

There are probably a lot more results but that'll do, saves me a lot of figuring out how to say things and also typing.

That is very interesting that some of the studies where conducted by people with financial interest. Means they need to be taken with grain of salt. How do you find out which is funded by what, I have been looking at a few studies and they seem to be done by different people?

If conventional means aren't enough to get a study done then might you resort to private? Are their any publicly funded ones disproving this?

I do have some issues with the critisims from both articles though.

One is that the people I have read who recomend grounding don't recomend using plugin mats due to dirty electricity. They instead recommend barefoot, which I do. No financial insentive there.

Another main criticism is that free radicals need antioxidants, well according to the paper glycosaminoglycas are filled up with electrons by grounding, and reading another paper (https://arthritis-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/ar748) it appears these are effective at controlling free radicals. Also links to collagen.
"Ground substance polyelectrolyte molecules associated with the collagenous connective tissue matrix are charge reservoirs (Figure 12). The matrix is therefore a vast whole-body redox system. The glycosaminoglycans have a high density of negative charges due to the sulfate and carboxylate groups on the uronic acid residues. The matrix is therefore a body-wide system capable of absorbing and donating electrons wherever they are needed to support immune functioning.44 The interiors of cells including the nuclear matrix and DNA are all parts of this biophysical electrical storage and delivery system. The time-course of the effects of grounding on injury repair can be estimated in various ways. First, we know from medical infrared imaging that inflammation begins to subside within 30 minutes of connecting with the earth via a conductive patch placed on the skin.2,3 Secondly, metabolic activity increases during this same period. Specifically, there is an increase in oxygen consumption, pulse rate, and respiratory rate and a decrease in blood oxygenation during 40 minutes of grounding.45 We suspect that the “filling” of the charge reservoirs is a gradual process, possibly because of the enormous number of charged residues on the polyelectrolytes, and because they are located throughout the body. When charge reservoirs are saturated, the body is in a state we refer to as “inflammatory preparedness”. This means that the ground substance, which pervades every part of the body, is ready to quickly deliver antioxidant electrons to any site of injury via the semiconducting collagenous matrix (see Figure 16B)." https://www.dovepress.com/the-effec...-response--peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-JIR
How do I find out who funded this paper?

Final point. If Gezza Pollack is right about water then it changes the whole game of understanding how electrons from ground get to where they need, I doubt the critics have considered this angle.

 

[sb4]

How did it help you?
I have tried grounding and it helped me go to sleep so will try it again.

I have heard many reports of peoples sleep improving so it's worth a shot. Sometimes you have to be careful if plugging your bed or mat into the mains which is why people recommend grounding via a rod in your garden away from other electronics.

I cannot say for sure it is grounding as other effects are definitely at play but since I started spending all day outside grounded, in natural light I feel more relaxed, less running thoughts, etc. I have also noticed less sensitivity to bright light/screns and feeling less iritable. I will say I think a LOT of this has to do with being in natural light...

 

[gettinbetter]

Sometimes you have to be careful if plugging your bed or mat into the mains which is why people recommend grounding via a rod in your garden away from other electronics.

I ran a wire from the ground socket in my electrical outlet to my bed
All the wall sockets attached to a ground rod
I help the wire in my hand at bedtime for 20 minutes and I had surge of sleepiness

 

[sb4]

I ran a wire from the ground socket in my electrical outlet to my bed
All the wall sockets attached to a ground rod
I help the wire in my hand at bedtime for 20 minutes and I had surge of sleepiness

Well I'd keep it up and see if the same happens tonight .

Sometimes if the wirings dodgy you can get amps through ground and other effects. If you keep having positive effects then it probably ok.

 

[Wonko]

Humans EVOLVED to be in contact with the Earths natural magnetic field, do you dispute that?

Yes, as it's wrong

Humans evolved while in the presence of the earth's magnetic field. As did cockroaches, dinosaurs, small pink wiggly things.

We also evolved in the presence of mammoths, are many current health issues caused by a lack of mammoths? Or any of the hundreds of thousands of animal species that used to exist while humans were evolving that have gone extinct, that we used to eat on occasion? How about smallpox? In Europe we definitely evolved in the presence of smallpox. Or fleas? People and fleas have always gone together, probably since we were rodents. Is not having fleas negatively impacting on your health and do you need to regularly get bitten just to make your immune system function properly?

 

[Wonko]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/well/2011/02/22/cellphone-use-tied-to-changes-in-brain-activity/

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs193/en/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3184892/

https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/7521096400.pdf

https://www.emfanalysis.com/research/

Study the science.

Get back to nature.

You have over 500 posts, can you please learn to actually post rather than just editing your old posts!!

 

[Sushi]

Note: this thread has been moderated--simply to remove a couple of personal attacks and inflammatory comments.

 

[gettinbetter]

Note: this thread has been moderated--simply to remove a couple of personal attacks and inflammatory comments.

Don't overwork Sushi

 

[Basilico]

@sb4 - There is a really long thread here on PR about people using various LED (a few used laser) red light devices to improve their health. I read through the whole thing a few months ago because the idea seemed really fascinating and I was considering giving it a try.

Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware of, not a single person on that thread came close to curing themselves, or even got a lasting improvement. One or two people did get some improvements in certain symptoms (that may be unrelated to CFS), but no one has come close to actually improving the core problem of CFS. As you read through the thread, the common theme is that most people stop using their devices or return them. The thread was recently revived by 2 people who are currently experimenting with the red light devices. It seems like their results are up and down and they are combining the red light therapy with other things (like methylation supplements). Overall, I haven't seen anything that's convincing me it's worth a try.

I think that red light has some potential for improving select conditions, but I think it's another one of those things that sounds really good on paper and in theory but in practice just doesn't deliver the goods. If someone feels particularly drawn to trying it, I would tell them to go for it, but I don't think it's the solution or cure for anything as complex as CFS.

Here is the thread, in case you want to read about everyone's experience with red light:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/led-red-intranasal-light-therapy.24195/


My husband and I bought an earthing mat a few years ago. It did absolutely nothing for us. I have also spent long periods of time (months) walking around on the grass in bare feet, which had a similar (zero) effect on my health. I don't doubt that there are a handful of people who improve inexplicably by using an earthing mat or with red light therapy, or with any of the other million bizarre suggestions out there in the universe touted by various gurus, but the problem is that the results aren't repeatable on a large scale.

Ultimately, if following some JK suggestions lead to an improvement in health, I think it's a wonderful thing. And if it's free or very cheap, it's worth a try. Unfortunately, I, myself, in addition to other chronically sick people have tried some variation of his suggestions without success. If a majority of people were having success with his suggestions then we wouldn't be debating his merits.

I know very well that being chronically sick makes people desperate and willing to try anything. Unfortunately, there are an equal number of charlatans ready to take advantage of that fact, and I think Jack Kruse is one of these people. In his case, the motivation might not just be to scam money, but to feed his swollen ego.

If he genuinely believed that he had a legitimate solution to the world's health problems, I would expect to see his name published in reputable medical journals, authoring and contributing to double-blind studies, rather than writing stream-of-conscious style on a personal blog or self-publishing. As far as I'm aware, he doesn't publish in any reputable peer-reviewed medical publications. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The proof is in the pudding. I will happily eat my words the minute PR is filled with threads from long term CFS patients and caregivers proclaiming that they cured themselves and loved ones using JK's strategies. The fact we aren't seeing this is very telling.

 

[sb4]

@Basilico I have seen the thread but not read throught it, I think I've posted in it though. I personally have noticed a small but significant improvement using red light that goes away when i stop using it. I am by no means saying its a cure, just that it helps me and some others. BTW Kruse isn't saying its a cure either. It's just one of many things.

"If he genuinely believed that he had a legitimate solution to the world's health problems, I would expect to see his name published in reputable medical journals, authoring and contributing to double-blind studies, rather than writing stream-of-conscious style on a personal blog or self-publishing. As far as I'm aware, he doesn't publish in any reputable peer-reviewed medical publications. Correct me if I'm wrong."

Not that I know of. However how would this work? Would he just ask for public funding for a study? I have seen how researches have been treated that go against the grain, and it's not good. Does he fund his own? Then this would be discredited via bias. Or does he put his ideas out there for free and let people see if they help?

"The proof is in the pudding. I will happily eat my words the minute PR is filled with threads from long term CFS patients and caregivers proclaiming that they cured themselves and loved ones using JK's strategies. The fact we aren't seeing this is very telling."

This is a complex disease, so I doubt any one thing will cure it. How many members have tried all the things JK is saying. That would be move close to the equator, spend all day outside grounded, and avoid nnEMF like the plague (also some diet stuff). I don't think many have tried. I have seen threads on here of people getting spontaneus remission from being on holiday, and I have seen people who don't notice a difference.

I would very much like a load of people to try doing this so there is more data, as I wish to try it at some point. Problem is POTS and overheating, as well as other issues (money).

 

[keenly]

@Basilico I have seen the thread but not read throught it, I think I've posted in it though. I personally have noticed a small but significant improvement using red light that goes away when i stop using it. I am by no means saying its a cure, just that it helps me and some others. BTW Kruse isn't saying its a cure either. It's just one of many things.

"If he genuinely believed that he had a legitimate solution to the world's health problems, I would expect to see his name published in reputable medical journals, authoring and contributing to double-blind studies, rather than writing stream-of-conscious style on a personal blog or self-publishing. As far as I'm aware, he doesn't publish in any reputable peer-reviewed medical publications. Correct me if I'm wrong."

Not that I know of. However how would this work? Would he just ask for public funding for a study? I have seen how researches have been treated that go against the grain, and it's not good. Does he fund his own? Then this would be discredited via bias. Or does he put his ideas out there for free and let people see if they help?

"The proof is in the pudding. I will happily eat my words the minute PR is filled with threads from long term CFS patients and caregivers proclaiming that they cured themselves and loved ones using JK's strategies. The fact we aren't seeing this is very telling."

This is a complex disease, so I doubt any one thing will cure it. How many members have tried all the things JK is saying. That would be move close to the equator, spend all day outside grounded, and avoid nnEMF like the plague (also some diet stuff). I don't think many have tried. I have seen threads on here of people getting spontaneus remission from being on holiday, and I have seen people who don't notice a difference.

I would very much like a load of people to try doing this so there is more data, as I wish to try it at some point. Problem is POTS and overheating, as well as other issues (money).

Low dopamine individuals can not grasp this. They think they will get well being indoors as long as they take their antibiotics ans supplements.

 

[Wonko]

The equator is generally considered to be south if you're in the northern hemisphere, right?

Perhaps this would explain why I normally feel better in the bedroom - no one said how far to move towards the equator did they? (I thought it was because it was cooler in there in the afternoon, but what do I know).

Daft I know but......

.....I think it might be an idea to specify which aspect of moving closer to the equator is considered helpful. Is it perhaps the small decrease in effective gravity (due to the rotational speed of the planet being high the closer to the equator you get), which could also be achieved by living at higher altitude, is it perhaps the increase in the number of air and waterborne parasites, the increase in average temperature, the differences in diet, the sometimes radically increased number of alligators/crocodiles, the different plant spores, the increase in conflict, etc.