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Dr Chia finds Double-stranded RNA in stomach biopsies

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by thegodofpleasure, Apr 15, 2015.

  1. thegodofpleasure

    thegodofpleasure Player in a Greek Tragedy

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    In 2007, Dr John Chia published a paper which showed that a high proportion of M.E patients were found to have a viral protein (VP1) expressed in biopsies taken from the tissues lining their stomachs. That paper can be found here: http://jcp.bmjjournals.com/content/61/1/43.abstract and the full version is also available in the Library: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ated-with-chronic-enterovirus-infection.3097/

    Dr Chia & colleagues have now followed up that work with a new paper entitled "Functional Dyspepsia and Chronic Gastritis associated with Enteroviruses" a full version of which can be accessed here: https://app.box.com/s/tzqw9bu7w48rd037jvmlyzmbr3pedo7g

    Having failed to capture the interest of the scientific community with his earlier work, Dr Chia has played down the "CFS" angle in the title of the paper and in finding the same rates of infection in Functional Dyspepsia patients, will engage with a much broader audience in the world of gastroenterology.

    This could therefore be huge for us !

    If you look at the Wikipedia page on Double-stranded RNA viruses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double- stranded_RNA_viruses and then follow some of the leads - for example to "DICER" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicer, it doesn't take too much imagination to see that a genetic defect in the DICER1 gene could be at the root of the problem - both in FD/ Chronic Gastritis and in M.E. ........ the difference being that PwME go on to develop additional autoimmune problems.
     
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  2. Bob

    Bob

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    I haven't had time to read this study in detail or to fully think through its potential implications, but my initial impression was that it may mean that enteroviruses are not associated with ME, per se, but they may be associated with ME patients who have gastrointestinal issues, and also people without ME who have gastrointestinal issues. (i.e. enteroviruses may be associated with gastritis etc, rather than ME itself.) This could mean that it's yet another opportunistic virus that takes advantage of our dysfunctional immune systems, leading to secondary symptoms/complications (or comorbid diagnoses), rather than it being a casual agent. But I may have missed some significant info, as I've only briefly skimmed the article. Anyone else have any thoughts about this after reading the paper?
     
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  3. Simon

    Simon

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    Interesting stuff., Chia has demonstrated the presence of enterovirus in stomach biopsies in a new and very large cohort of mecfs patients (n=416, collected 2006-2012) - backing up his earlier findings from the 2007 paper.

    The team also showed that potential cross-reaction of test antibody to a protein other than VP1 couldn't account for these results (this was a crticism raised about the original 2007 study).

    However, the study also showed the same high rate of enterovirus in functional dyspepsia whether or not they have mecfs, suggesting that enterovirus infection alone is unlikely to be the cause of mecfs. We also don't know what proportion of mecfs patients have functional dyspepsia (it's 10-20% of the general population, the paper says). Presumably Dr John Chia sees patients with stomach problems.

    As @Bob says, maybe the enterovirus is opportunistic. Or maybe it's a trigger. Or something else... But still, interesting stuff.
     
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  4. thegodofpleasure

    thegodofpleasure Player in a Greek Tragedy

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    True. It could just be an opportunistic infection, but if you look further at the characteristics of these dsRNA viruses (and what they do - such as causing immunosuppression) then the likelihood that they are causative in ME starts to look more promising.

    An interesting line of investigation would be to establish whether these dsRNA viruses are capable of causing infected cells to produce Heat-shock protein 60 (or epitopes of HSP60) which would perhaps help to explain a link between this type of infection and the development of autoimmunity in ME patients.
    http://www.meresearch.org.uk/our-research/completed-studies/human-heat-shock-protein/
     
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  5. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    It is possible that a chronic enteroviral infection is associated with all "functional" disorders but that symptom expression depends on the viral load in various tissues. So you get functional dyspepsia if your GI is infected whereas to get full-blown ME/CFS you might need muscles and brain to be infected as well.
     
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  6. thegodofpleasure

    thegodofpleasure Player in a Greek Tragedy

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    oceiv likes this.
  7. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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  8. thegodofpleasure

    thegodofpleasure Player in a Greek Tragedy

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    Interestingly, Dr Chia reported finding chronic Chlamydia Pneumoniae infection in a small number of his ME patients as long ago as the late 1990's http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/2/452.full.pdf

    That is a more interesting finding when viewed alongside the last paragraph from the ME Research Uk page describing Prof Blomberg's work on finding antibodies to epitopes of HSP60

     
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  9. thegodofpleasure

    thegodofpleasure Player in a Greek Tragedy

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  10. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    That isn't what the paper suggests. Dr. Chia very much believes that enteroviruses are one of the major causes of ME. Obviously I can't speak for him, but from talking to him, he seems to believe that the symptoms of disease caused by persistent enterovirus depend on where the virus is located, and he seems confident that a lot of our ME symptoms are due to the virus being in certain parts of the brain.
     
  11. Simon

    Simon

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    I must be missing something:
    Nothing there about a causative role in ME/CFS.
     
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  12. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    It's not a paper about ME/CFS. It's a paper about FD in a gastroenterology journal. He's just publishing about some of his secondary findings while researching ME. Nothing about this paper is ruling out enteroviruses in ME.

    If you haven't already, I'd highly suggest reading all of Dr. Chia's papers on enterovirus:

    Acute enterovirus infection followed by myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) and viral persistence 2009
    Chronic fatigue syndrome is associated with chronic enterovirus infection of the stomach 2007
    The role of enterovirus in chronic fatigue syndrome 2005
    Ribavirin and Interferon-a for the Treatment of Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Associated with Persistent Coxsackievirus B Infection: A Preliminary Observation 2004
    Diverse Etiologies for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome 2003

    Beyond the association with ME, he has also published various papers where he found associations with enterovirus infection and intestinal intussusception, carcinoid tumors, VZV reactivation, pityriasis rosea, and leukocytoclastic vasculitis.
     
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  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Certainly the more chronic diseases are connected to enteroviruses, the more likely it is that pharmaceutical companies will invest money in enterovirus antivirals, and enterovirus vaccines.

    Dr Chia is certainly doing sterling work in discovering which diseases are linked to enteroviruses.
     
  14. Oredogg

    Oredogg

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    Well done, Dr. Chia! He told me about this study a while back and I am thrilled to see it in print! As a pathologist, I see mild chronic gastritis in stomach biopsies frequently. Some pathologists just blow it off as "normal". I have never felt comfort with that approach. I think he is really on to something here. H. Pylori is frequently discussed in context of gastritis, but from my experience, it is not common. Maybe 5-10% of gastritis cases.
     
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  15. oceiv

    oceiv Senior Member

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    Good information, thank you. Is there more info on what ME patients with gastritis have done for treatment, somewhere?

    On the study, since there are enteroviruses found but no definitive cause for ME/CFS stated, it could be that this research is one more study of a viral trigger for the disease. IMHO, the difference between ME/CFS patients and healthy people with this virus seems likelier to be a genetic predisposition to having ME/CFS. The enterovirus plus genetics would explain different outcomes. This theory would then fit in with the multiple triggers theories out there.
     
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  16. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    https://www.google.com/patents/US20130203798

    Again, this isn't an ME/CFS paper. Dr. Chia's assertion is that an enterovirus triggers the disease and persistence of the infection perpetuates the symptoms.
     
  17. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    I doubt genetics can explain this. Our genes simply doesn't seem to be that different, compared with the normal population.

    What could explain it, is differences in gut microbiota. This paper discusses how the microbiota influences viral susceptibility.

    Interestingly, the microbiota not only influences viral susceptibility, but also modulates the immune response to viral pathogens.

    The Intestinal Microbiota and Viral Susceptibility
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2015
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  18. oceiv

    oceiv Senior Member

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    Thank you.


    I see what you're saying about Dr. Chia's opinion. But I must say that the abstract and results do seem to describe a CFS/ME and controls research study. Also, the OP said Dr. Chia was playing down the CFS/ME aspect in order to get more scientific interest. I'm confused.

    Personally, I believe there are multiple triggers, which set of an unending immune response.

    In my family, there are several with CFS/ME and/or the usual co-morbid disorders. We grew up and live in different cities and countries. I also have a relative in the same branch of the family who battled lymphoma. This and related conditions are too prevalent in my family not to be genetic, especially without other common factors (such as local diet, places of birth, places of living). But I agree in part: microbiome will turn out to be one influential factor.

    Basically, I think all of the physical prerequisites need to happen all together in genetically susceptible people to create the perfect immune storm. I realize now that @halcyon pointed out, that Dr, Chia has focused mostly on enteroviruses as the cause.

    I will look at @halcyon 's Dr. Chia links and your micribiota/viral susceptibility link. I'm definitely curious to read them. I'm also reading through Dr. Chia's site and found this:

    From this explanation, it seems he thinks there's an underlying immune problem, which makes patients more susceptible to the infections. Only more research will tell us what causes that underlying susceptibility. He acknowledges non-enterovirus cases though, it seems.

    Interesting stuff, glad @halcyon got me looking further into Chia. Thanks for posting this study, @thegodofpleasure .
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2015
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  19. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    Indeed, Dr. Chia has also published research linking C. pneumoniae and parvovirus B19.
     
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  20. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    If gut microbiota explain it, why don't people who have fecal transplants recover?
     
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