The power and pitfalls of omics part 2: epigenomics, transcriptomics and ME/CFS
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DQ and Potassium (and other needed minerals) and the role of B3

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sregan, Dec 3, 2015.

  1. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Please reply if you have experience using Potassium with DQ supps...

    Hello all, I know I've been silent for a while. Been trying to sort some things out. I detailed in my blog that I had a 6-7 week remission of all CFS symptoms over the summer. I have a finite set of variables (which is still pretty substantial) during that time period I'm working with to try to recreate this.

    I've started back on low dose DQ supps which are producing some effects. On only 800mcg of MFolate My need for Potassium is already up. I think on my previous run up to 9mg of Mfolate a day that I depleted any reserve I might have had.

    I'm finding now that taking 500mg of K along with some Magnesium Glycinate and Calcium is keeping me feeling pretty good. Also taking very small doses of Active B's during the day.

    I know Phase-1 detox is supposed to create some intermediates that can make us feel worse but seems like a properly operating Phase-2 system should only make us feel better. For example when I would drink alcohol I could boost Acetylation with Molybdenum, Pantethine and mostly remedy any hangover symptoms the next day as the acetaldehyde is quickly converted to useful acetic acid. Seems the water soluable byproducts of Phase 2 should make us feel better by removing the toxic intermediate of Phase 1. (My understanding might be lacking).

    Questions:

    For me I need to know how long after taking my DQ supps to wait before I should take my Potassium and other minerals? I know Freddd says not to take Potassium with the DQ supps. The DQ supps, in my experience, definitely create a demand for minerals and Potassium especially so I probably need to take them ASAP to remedy this deficiency.

    Also has anyone figured out a reliable way to monitor Potassium levels by symptoms (or other clever means) to stay in the "zone" of not too little or too much? This would be very critical info for anyone taking DQ supps.

    Also interested to hear what kinds of Potassium and how others are taking their Potassium to increase effectiveness and spare the stress on the stomach.

    Also wanted to mention B3. Perhaps for my particular genetics that plays an important part. I believe that by taking DQ supps and boosting SAMe and methylation that we are using up B3 (binding to the SAMe). I think that perhaps B3 is critical for many and instead of being shunned as something that will defeat methylation (as I did) it should be taken some hours away from methylation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    When I was titrating up folate, I needed a lot of K+. I monitored by symptoms (esp. heavy, rapid heart beat) and self-testing. For a long time I was using about 1gm, AM/PM. I put NOW K+ gluconate into footbath w/ other powdered supps, 15-20 minutes. Worked great, no gut involvement.

    I was taking folate/B12 away from my AM footbath, also on their own at midday, but PM footbath was at the same time as DQ. Also, carnitine was added to footbath.
     
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  3. telochian

    telochian

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    I too am really trying to understand how to find that potassium balance. I seem to remember Freddd talking about a "slow compartment", "fast compartment" concept with regards to potassium which complicates things, as serum levels can differ from tissue levels. As a rule, if my heart is beating too fast, I need more and if I'm getting numbness or nauseous, I've had too much.

    I have noticed a relationship between potassium gluconate which I normally take and glucose rich foods, in that my need for potassium rises after eating something with a lot of sugar in it. I recently came upon this;

    "Insulin injections are used to treat hyperkalemia in emergency situations. Insulin is a hormone well known for its ability to stimulate the entry of sugar(glucose) into cells. It also provokes the uptake of potassium ions by cells, decreasing potassium ion concentration in the blood. When insulin is used to treat hyperkalemia, glucose is also injected. Serum potassium levels beginto decline within 30 to 60 minutes and remain low for several hours."

    Read more: http://www.faqs.org/health/topics/28/Potassium-imbalance.html#ixzz3tK5cX91n

    I'm not sure how to properly interpret this but eating something with glucose may be a way of decreasing potassium levels and could potentially give us some more control over finding that "sweet spot". I have also noticed that extra b1 and b2 seem to decrease potassium levels (and increase methylation), sometimes disastrously if taken at high doses, 10mg or so of each seems to work for me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
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  4. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    Would you say @ahmo that there is a direct relationship between taking more methylfolate and needing more potassium?

    I seem to recall you cut back Mb12 and this lowered your need for methylfolate, did your need for potassium also drop?
     
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I have no idea what DQ Supps are.
     
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  6. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Definitely. The folate is stimulating a lot of cellular activity, the potassium supports this.

    I actually decreased B12 in response to decreasing folate. I was up to 30mg folate, w/ similar dosage of MB12. At that point I became aware that this was stressing my adrenals, recognized the impact green vegetables was having on my folate uptake, quit the veggies, and halved my folate needs. I find now that small increases in folate can stress my adrenals. I think my need for potassium, and a lot of other things ended after my Candida/bacteria detox this year. I also did a 3-day water fast to reset immune system. Somewhere in there I found I no longer need K+. I'm also eating a nut/seed mixture anc lot's of carrots, seems to be enough.
    Methyl B12, AdenoB12, MethylFolate, Carnitine (generally LCF, sometimes ALCAR). The essentials for implementing Freddd's Protocol. Deadlock Quartet: when things are missing, the process is dead-locked.
     
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  7. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    @ahmo I think that is really interesting that your need for potassium dropped after Candida/bacteria detox. Did you get significant improvement from taking the large amounts of MB12 and Methylfolate initially?
     
  8. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Good find btw! Sounds like high carb/sugar diet will defeat some of the potassium we might take in response to the Methylation needs. I would say that we should avoid sugar or high carb anyway but especially when taking DQ supps and the few hours afterwards (unless one takes throughout the day then just avoid sugar/high carb all day)
     
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  9. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Definitely. Once I my B12 doses were high enough my neurological symptoms cleared, including tremors, muscle twitches, extreme noise/light sensitivity, insomnia. I don't know how to quantify or separate out the effects from folate.

    Fred found, and I also experienced, that excess B vits increase need for K+. I'm now using a B complex that's about 25mg/day
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I have a few more remarks on balance. I have found that each B1, B2, B3 and inositol can all increase the need for potassium and methylfolate and appears to decrease actual healing. Recently I found that I have had a slow copper deficiency that hit a new level of damage recently. All of the upper limits I saw on the b1, B2, B3 and inositol, above which they induced (each a different selection) some failed methylation symptoms.. The copper deficiency has the same characteristics as regarding failed methylation sequence somewhere different. So the copper deficiency causes cyanotic gum tissue and very inflamed but not infected gums that shrink from normal to all teeth have to go in 5 years yet appears to leave the bone in good shape as long as infection is controlled. It makes for brittle hair and nails. Spider veins and varicosities start appearing as the connective tissue starts breaking down. The gums start melting way leading to 100% tooth loss in perhaps 5 years.

    As regards the upper effective limits of b1, b2, b3 and inositol it might at least partly involve the copper deficiency. My deficiency symptoms started popping out after the glutathione damage started healing perhaps 6 years ago and slowly got worse until it started getting much worse with sleep disorders, depression and other mood problems and feeling physically worse very fast by the day. After testing, before results I bought some copper and within 4 hours the fast worsening was holding level and started backing off. Improvement started the first day and within a week I was feeling more normal but not in time to save my upper teeth.

    Of course the tests showed that I was merely at the bottom of "normal" (74, 72 is bottom of range). None the less in 2 months my gums are no longer cyanotic or inflamed, and normalized to such a degree that both the oral surgeon and dentist commented on that and that I was healing "much better and faster" than expected. With the condition of my gums 2 months ago I was not given good odds. Now with some luck and fast healing and some increased gum tissue I might even get to keep my lower teeth. I will know by next year at this time more or less.

    In this game of YOU BET YOUR LIFE, we a playing for the highest stakes, our health and life. My one real skill is data organization and analysis. Unfortunately the data has been gathered the hard way.

    It is my best opinion that working from a "refeeding syndrome" basis, gives the most solid theoretical basis for what the basis of the symptoms might be. With the internal triage layers (B12s and folate) and their effects, induced folate deficiency symptoms on some layers while others are healing.

    Realizing that the symptoms change rapidly for "the most limiting factor", the symptoms due to the most limiting factor will change rapidly. One usually will have their answer in 1 to 3 days. If it isn't affected, reversing the symptoms, while the item may be needed, it isn't the answer to "what is causing this group of symptoms". So rapidly increasing histamine reactions, increasing inflammation and many other symptoms is usually methylfolate deficiency. If you want to KNOW, try an 8mg dose of Metafolin or thereabouts. That is generally enough to start to stop cold most triage layers of folate deficiency symptoms for some hours. Then there will be potassium deficiency symptoms build up in 3 days of continued folate. Fix the potassium, and continue with the next revealed symptoms. For me, once I put a stop to triage layers of folate deficiency with 28,800 mcg daily a most peculiar mix of methylation symptoms were revealed and that was copper.

    Over the first 2 weeks I titrated to 15mg/day for maximum effect from the copper.(Solgar amino acid chelate) and have been there for 2 months. As would be expected following the path of "refeeding syndrome", on the 3rd day after starting copper, my need for potassium went up 400mg a day. My oral surgeon and dentist have never seen before a turn around like they just have. So now I'm hea;ling the copper deficiency symptoms and waiting top seed what remaining symptoms are exposed as the next "most limiting factor".symptoms. With this basis the switch from methyltrap to partial methylation block or back to methyltrap is pretty clear. I'm trying to make things as clear as I can. Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
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  11. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    @Freddd , I'm at the point where anything more than a 1/8th of a tablet of Nature Made B-complex with Vit C, results in increase in folate and potassium deficiency symptoms and an increase in neurolgical symptoms, but no benefit.

    When I increased to 1/2 b- complex a tablet twice a day, I couldn't seem to take enough folate or potassium to keep up with symptoms with no apparent improvement otherwise in terms of healing. I backed back the b's. Things stabilized a little -- but one thing I've noticed once on the methylation path, there's not really a stabilization, the body simply goes looking for the next thing!

    Makes me think of something else limiting, will look into copper.

    You've found you've had to increase methylfolate right up to 28800mcg a day, has your need for MB12 similarly increased over time?
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hello SJB,

    I taking 1/2 of those twice a day and have been. The Metafolin makes a really pretty and neat curve that if everything was like that this would be very easy. As I said elsewhere the number and frequency of appearing decreased in a smooth curve as it went form tons of symptoms at 400mcg to one barely perceptible each two weeks single symptom at 28,800.

    "Things stabilized a little -- but one thing I've noticed once on the methylation path, there's not really a stabilization, the body simply goes looking for the next thing!"

    EXACTLY!
    Except that the body doesn't exactly look for it but rather it heals everything it has the nutrients to do and as more things heal the only things left are the things lacking an ingredient. That is the long term aspect of "refeeding syndrome". Most of the things showing up are the trace minerals past the beginning, otherwise it is about everything. With 400 mcg of Metafolin I was getting perhaps 1% of folate healing and almost nothing else ran out. The more healing I was doing, the more cells being made, the more ingredients I needed. That ended up with running out of copper reserves perhaps 5-7 years ago, shortly after the glutathione recovery which dead-ended possibly because of lack of copper. Now the symptoms that don't recover will be from a lack of manganese or something. The thing is, the only way we can track is how symptoms respond, and the collection of symptoms points at the what is CURRENTLY lacking something. If that something is taken, the symptoms respond in usually hours to a few days. I started a new thread that if you want to use your situation to work out the things and help develop the logic.

    Also, my MeCbl hasn't increased. The maximum benefit I get is at 10mg injection 3x per day and that is all CNS. I have done titrations to 60mg 3x per day and it doesn't change. In the range from 1 mcg to perhaps 3000-5000 mcg injected per day has a nice neat curve just like L-methylfolate. Then there is a single "threshold" at about >6.0 and <=7.5mg injection (subcutaneous) in which CNS penetration is achieved and then no linearity at all. At that does I need 4 per day. At 10mg I need 3 per day. Another person uses 2x15mg, that mostly reflects absorption and excretion times and the period in which there is sufficient gradient for diffusion into the CSF. The only MeCbl/AdoCbl symptoms I have remaining are CNS and maybe some peripheral nervous system. I would love to find exactly what would allow those things to heal the rest of the way. Copper caused serious problems rapidly and are slow to improve.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
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