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does NAC really cause damage?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by physicsstudent13, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    does NAC really cause heart fibrosis, thickening of the walls, narrowing of the airways? in a rat study it did. I've taken a lot of NAC and it has helped my energy and cognition but I'm not sure if I should continue especially since I have asthma and can't exhale well.
     
  2. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    there is many of us who have used NAC for many years without any issues. I personally think it has helped protect my liver from all the meds i have used over the years and is the reason why i continue to use it.

    cheers!!!
     
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  3. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    I had a stress echocardiogram and it came out normal- NAC is given for cystic fibrosis and COPD according to one site.... yeah liver damage leads to exhaustion and brain damage with increased ammonia levels. after my tracheotomy I had severe liver damage and was weak and bedridden for 6 weeks
    by the way what is your dosage? I took 72g over 7 days from liver damage (my glutathione levels were probably depleted) but now I only take 600-1800mg a day
    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa042976
     
  4. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I take 600mg twice a day. If i take more then 1 dose of paracetamol a day or attempt a few beers (which is rare) i will increase my NAC for the day.
     
  5. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    That requires very high doses for an extended period ... somewhere around 10x the safe dose that has been studied a lot in AIDS patients. Those studies have shown 1800mg to be quite safe.
     
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  6. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    I'm glad because I was on just that 1800 mg for three months. I wreaked havoc with me in terms of digestion, absorption, bloating, amino acid profile. etc. I know it helps a lot of people here...it just goes to show how we are all different.
     
  7. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    I still feel like vomiting and took some charcoal (have upset intestinal nausea). yeah I think NAC saved my liver and it saves patients in the ER from tyenol overdose
     
  8. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    the one thing you must do is quit any alcohol and smoking, the liver creates neurotransmitters and melatonin, so liver disease will destroy your brain and pancreas and sleep
     
  9. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Just a note: If you are histamine-intolerant, you may have trouble with NAC. The article "Histamine and Histamine Intolerance" by Maintz and Novak in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition lists Acetylcysteine as an "agent interfering with histamine metabolism" in Table 5. From the title of Table 5, we know it's the DAO enzyme that is affected - the one that works in the gut and kidneys - not HNMT.
    My personal experience confirms this. I am intolerant of the foods in Table 3, and NAC 1800 mg/day for 90 days caused bloating and weight gain of almost 7 lbs. I also experienced malabsorption at that time, even while taking digestive aids.
     
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  10. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I have been in toxic hell for the past two months (due to dental work and road paving), so I have increased my dose of NAC to 3600 mg/day---1200 mg 3X/day. Without it I would be too sick to function. I plan to bring it down as the toxins clear.
     
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  11. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    I just took the NAC because I was so weak, bedridden and and needed to save my liver after surgery. so at 10.8g/day it becomes dangerous (there has been at least one death in ER from overdose)?

    Wikipedia says that oral glutathione doesn't raise glutathione levels to clinically significant levels, I don't know if the reduced glutathione is also unabsorbed.

    I seem to have some GI problems now on all these supplements, antibiotics. if you are removing toxins from your system what is a good sign?
     
  12. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    today I started sam-E in addition to the NAC and despite waking up really foggy I feel clearer and more energy. sam-E seems to help the liver and neurotransmitters through methylation. anyone else have positive sam-e stories?
    I noticed that late at night I would feel clearer and more lucid like the neurotransmitter methylation took a whole day, maybe I'm a slow methylator?
    what are signs that the NAC is working and removing toxins from your system? I need to get a liver ultrasound to check for damage
     
  13. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    the heart and lung damage from NAC seem serious, I wonder what dose and time period causes it?
    NAC probably saved my liver and brain from damage after surgery/anesthesia. I have a big jar of 100 capsules, maybe I should take some every day
     
  14. Kimsie

    Kimsie Senior Member

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    Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!

    This article just supplied another important piece of the puzzle in my quest to figure out how to deal with histamine in my son. I have long known that niacin or niacinamide helps mitigate allergies, specifically my husband's asthma, and that pressure from allergens increased the amount of niacin that a person needed to take to experience the niacin "flush". Now I understand why. In Figure 2. they show that DAO is inhibited by imidazole acetaldehyde, the product of histamine when it is reduced by DAO, and when I checked the Wikipedia page on aldehyde dehydrogenase, the next step in getting rid of the histamine - it takes NAD(P)+ as a cofactor, which is made from niacin or niacinamide. So in order for DAO to get rid of lots of histamine, it has to have enough niacin, or it will be inhibited.

    I had been giving him niacinamide, 1 gm 3 times a day and he was improving, and then I didn't give it to him one night and one morning and he was so much worse that day. Of course, I was giving it to him for a different reason, which may or may not be a correct reason. So interesting.

    I also learned that the histamine N-methyltranferase enzyme is inhibited by its product, which can be dealt with by either DAO or MAO-B. Well, my son has the slow version of the MAO B rs1799836 gene mutation (slow version is C or G depending on which strand) so there might not be anything we can do to improve the amount of histamine he can get rid of through that route. Does anyone know how you can support MAO B? Does B2support MAO B?
     
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  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Critterina,

    In an unknown percentage of people taking an unknown dose has what is often call "NAC detox". That is an induced methyltrap which "wreaked havoc".

    It's the same thing that happens with glutathione or whey for some people.
     
  16. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    I wasn't methyltrapped. I was exhibiting histamine intolerance symptoms. Mine are mostly respiratory, but I had the gut involvement also. I'd be interested, though, if you could explain in terms of biochemistry how NAC would cause methyltrap.
     
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  17. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Kimsie,

    Thanks for your story! I feel better with NADH sublingual 20 mg once a day. Maybe I'll experiment with spacing it out or increasing dose. I am ultra-sensitive to things like cinnamon, tomatoes, spinach, cream cheese.

    There's another article you should have, called Histamine Intolerance in Clinical Practice by Maintz, Bieber, and Novak; citation: Dtch Arztebl 2006; 103(51-52); 3477-83. These two articles changed my life. Everything that was on my "food allergy list" was either something on the list, or something I confused with something on the list (like having oatmeal and cinnamon together - who knew it was the cinnamon, not the oatmeal?). Now every food that is not on the list has been added back to my diet without ill effect. And I've solved the mystery of how I can not react to cooked meat one day, but seem to react to it later (after it's been in the fridge a few days.) I have heard that there are uncultured cottage cheeses for sale, but I have yet to find any. If anyone has, I'd like to know the source. I travel and don't carry my animal rennet with me.

    I'm waiting for the two articles on Adrenal Insufficiency (the Lancet and Annals of Medicine, both 2003) to likewise change my life...but without a doc who sees my lab results as problematic, I'm not being treated. I have high hopes that treating my secondary AI will cause an improvement in my HI. One day I hope to be healthy enough to eat a tomato. :rolleyes:
     
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  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Critterina,

    The symptoms I'm talking about are generally some of the following from methyltrap, increasing over time after starting within hours of methyltrap occurring.

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body,

    Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.


    You may have heard the terms "Glutathione detox" and "NAC detox". Their symptoms are identical. In the study for FDA approval Cerefolin (Metafolin) with NAC has side effects contained in the above list. Deplin (pure Metafolin) has "Deplin is generally well tolerated with no side effects different from placebo".

    It would appear that in some people a NAC promotes a great deal of glutathione formation. They react to NAC the same as to glutathione.

    HOW TO INDUCE SUBACUTE COMBINED DEGENERATION and enlarged MCV in humans in 3 months or less.

    Causing SCD and macrocytic anemia was NEVER our intention, our intention was to induce health benefits from glutathione or precursors as claimed these days amongst certain practitioners. This is just how it turned out, 180 degrees from what we expected.
    Individual results will vary but in an N=10 trial, 100% of subjects had the results to varying degrees, perhaps as they used several different precursor combos or infusions.

    The subjects were all successful with adb12, mb12 and Metafolin. Those not in this group that had never relieved the deficiency symptoms claimed pain relief from the glutathione as their nerves were damaged further into numbness.

    Method 1 - feed subjects 1 gram of l-glutamine and 600mg of time release NAC twice a day for duration (or frequent glutathione infusions, or NAC or whey in some). In 3 hours after first dose most of available b12 in the body will be flushed out in the urine. Then within the next few hours methylfolate is expelled from the cells via the "methyl trap".

    Widespread body, muscle and joint, inflammation and pain start within hours and gets worse by the day. This is responsive to NSAIDS generally. Folate deficiency symptoms appear the first day, mb12 deficiency symptoms in several days and adb12 deficiency symptoms - 3 months or so.

    Over the next days and weeks, CPR heads for the roof. Hypersensitivity of all sorts starts, MCS, hyper-immune response, hypersensitivity in nerves, etc. In 3 days angular cheilitis starts up in those who are prone to it. In 2 more days IBS starts. At about the same time acne type lesions start up on scalp and face and often infected follicles in other body areas. Oral lesions usually follow. By six weeks centrally mediated numbness and pain of feet and legs, hands, arms, shoulders etc are all spreading and worsening
    .
    Dr Jeckyl leaves the house and is replaced with Mr Hyde for the duration. Sleep disorders increase. In 3 months macrocytosis is obvious, MCV > 100. MS will be dramatically worsened. If the person is also extremely low on l-carnitine and/or adb12 Parkinson's like symptoms may worsen explosively. Then if l-carnitine is given the subject may go absolutely nuts and a walkthrough of the extreme FFF characteristics of the limbic system will be demonstrated in usually the same order each time, dependent upon rising or falling l-carnitine level.

    Reversal, if SCD is not allowed to go too far is multiple 15mg doses of Metafolin (Deplin) and three 50mg mb12 doses or 10mg SC injections of SUITABLE 5 star mecbl until healed for at least a year, and of adcbl the first few days. On day 3 need for potassium will increase by 2000-3000mg to avoid dramatic sudden onset of Hypokalemia symptoms when backlogged healing starts up. Also on day 3 Metafolin dosage needs increase.

    In about a month inflammation will be largely gone if all cofactors are present that are needed, CRP <=1.0, multitudes of pains will be fading. Only the remyelination and MCV take about 9 months to correct to the extent that they can but trail on for years as it is an ongoing equilibrium that is either getting better or worse.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2013
  19. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Would you send me the article or a link to it? And spelling out acronyms would help.

    I was negative for any sort of anemia. I don't have CFS or ME either, and my SNPs would not indicate a vulnerability to "methyl trap" as I've heard it explained, although I've never heard it explained sufficiently for me to put any confidence in the theory. I did not have hypokalemia; I did not have symptoms of folate deficiency. I didn't have almost the whole list of symptoms that you have there. I had the same symptoms that I have when I eat tomatoes, spinach, peppers, cinnamon, and fermented or cultured foods. The stopped when I stopped NAC, without changes to my methylation supplements.

    My reaction to your post is: How arrogant! You think you know everything about me and why something happened because "wreaked havoc" is some technical term that means I was methyltrapped Get a grip. I could have a runny nose, and could it be a cold? No, according to your post above, it would be methyltrap.

    I am in the business of managing the writing fact-based highly technical sales literature. We would call almost everything in the above post an UBA "unsubstantiated bold assertion". Posit a mechanism at least, and refer to biochemistry that I can verify in a textbook. Cite a peer-reviewed journal. Up the professionalism. Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde do not belong in scientific explanations; they belong in fiction.
     
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  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Critterina,

    I was offering a possibility for your consideration. If it helps you solve any part of your problem or possibly adds to your understanding, great. You will of course do whatever it is you choose to do.

    Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde do not belong in scientific explanations; they belong in fiction.

    Yes, they are memorable characters and make for good similes or metaphors.

    I am in the business of managing the writing fact-based highly technical sales literature.

    Yes, and I am sure that you do use language that not one person in 1000 or more here is likely to understand without highly specialized technical language. I'm sure you would never use a literary allusion in such technical literature, or use a pun or anything humorous.. I used to write highly technical articles for computer magazines, point out errors in peer reviewed journal articles that would have flunked as high school lab reports or designed for the marketing department instead of anything factual. I got over it.

    Twenty years of CFS/FMS, congestive heart failure, MCS, and a whole lot more changed my priorities. I had to solve the problems myself if I was going to survive since none of the docs could figure it out and decades of peer reviewed research got it very wrong, which is why this forum even exists for us to be discussing this. So if you ever go looking for Jeckyl-Hyde potion, Dr. Bunson Honeydew makes the best I hear.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2013

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