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Does Manganese Detox on its own?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Christopher, Mar 11, 2013.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I get almost 3 mg of manganese just from the oat bran I put in my protein shake. I assume I get at least 5 mg from my diet. I also have 2 bottles of manganese. The first I bought was 10 mg capsules, but then I decided it was too much and it's kind of a hassle to empty out part of the capsule because they're so tiny. Then I bought a bottle of 15 mg tablets which I was planning to cut in 1/2 or 1/4. Even though it would be convenient to have b vitamins, mangnesium, malic acid, and manganese all in one capsule especially since I'm taking all of those supplements already I can't justify the expense. I also have a bottle of malic acid and some citrulline malate so I don't need any more malic acid either. And I just ordered some magnesium glycinate and krebs chelates magnesium. Plus, I also have nearly full bottles of P5P and R5P. At most, I might just take 3.75 mg manganese from now on. With my dietary manganese that would put me around 10 mg total. I thought maybe manganese might help with excitotoxicity (although that's not why I originally bought it), but that's only if I'm deficient in manganese and if my excitotoxicity if from glutamate. I'm not sure of either of those things right now. I don't eat nearly as many nuts or seeds as I used to, but I'm eating more grains so I'm probably not deficient. There were also periods in the past where I supplemented with manganese after suspecting a copper toxicity (which again I'm not sure of either).
     
  2. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Ok I misunderstood. It seemed from your earlier post that you thought 5mg Mn was a lot. I see you have more complex reasons for your reluctance to supplement.

    Maybe this will help:

    http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/pip/factsheets/ard/documents/ard-ehp-15.pdf

    Note the part on absorption. Mn has very low bioavailability in the diet. I would assume the chelated forms usually taken in supplements of high quality would be a bit higher than the quoted 3%. I have seen the 3% in many places, so you can trust it. As long as Mn is not inhaled airborne and one does not go bonkers with supplementation, I think the body is pretty good at managing Mn excess. It is fascinating how the total body store of Mn is only like 15-20 mg for an adult.
    So those people who supplement 30+ mg a day are getting 5-6% of the total amount in their body a day, which is not insignificant. I think this is what in part drives the establishment of the UL intake.

    As long as you are not deficient you should be ok. 5 mg from a diet is actually a very good amount. You must have a good diet. Most people don't hit that number I warrant. This assumes of course intestinal absorption is ok.

    In my case I get 5+ mg per day in my diet. But my GI tract absorption is wrecked due to Celiac's disease for decades and strong Occludin / Zonulin IgG titers. But my hair analysis showed very low levels in the interstitial space. I am waiting to confirm with some serum / urine numbers before I alter anything with Mn. That being said, the hair analysis was dead on target with the molybdenum. That has worked wonders for me. So who knows.
     
  3. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    From what I've read, it's very difficult to get to toxic levels of manganese from food intake, even with very frequent intake of high manganese foods. The supplements are a separate problem, it seems. From what I've been told, 3-5mg per day of supplemental Mn is an okay amount, and shouldn't require you to worry about what else you're eating.

    (Note: I am not a doctor or health professional, just passing on what I was advised. Obviously everyone is an individual, and should contact their own healthcare team if they are concerned ;) )
     
  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Is absorption low for other minerals in food or is it just manganese? I was also wondering if anyone knows which mineral supplements are better to take with food and which are better on an empty stomach
    I thought my diet was pretty good, but then I found out there's a protein in oats that's almost as bad as gluten:( When I found out about that my first thought wasn't that I should limit/avoid oats as I was with gluten. I actually thought maybe I should start eating more gluten. I told my dad about this who's also avoiding gluten and he started laughing and said he was thinking the same thing.
     
  5. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    It varies greatly from mineral to mineral. All minerals should be fine with food. Ancient man only got them by eating. Things like sodium and potassium are HIGHLY absorbed. Ca and Mg are absorbed well depending on form but are absorbed at a rate that means lengthier time intervals. Others are absorbed very inefficiently on purpose.
     
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  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Ancient man also got by without B12 sublinguals:lol:
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    They also weren't being constantly poisoned.
     
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Indeed but they ate a lot more meat and organs / liver than we might like to think nowadays. They also had no issues with intrinsic factor or they died. But mostly they died off by a point before all this sort of crud starts to exert itself ((
     
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Do you think taking supplemental intrinsic factor makes much difference in absorption?
     
  10. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Only for those deficient in it. But why bother when we have sublinguals?
     
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Agreed, but I'm mostly asking out of curiosity. There are certain people selling it (I'm not going to mention any names:rolleyes:) that seem to think it's important, but I don't want to tug at that thread.
     
  12. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I think it is like a slow adaptive reservoir model. A normal person does not need an infusion of much b12 in their diet. They absorb at a relatively low rate provided they have intrinsic factor. Everything is fine. If they have antibodies to intrinsic factor as per pernicious anemia then they have problems.

    From wikipedia:

    "Patients experiencing an insufficiency in their intrinsic factor levels cannot benefit from a low dose oral vitamin B12 supplement, because it will not absorb through the wall of the small intestine. Historically, the disease was thought untreatable before the discovery that it could be managed with regular injections of vitamin B12, thus bypassing the digestive tract. More recently, Swedish researchers discovered that sufficiently large doses of B12 can also be absorbed sublingually, removing the necessity for injectable B12.[2] However, no standards have been set for treatment by the sublingual route yet, and injections of B12 are the only reliable method of treatment."

    I would ignore the last line only in that the medical community can take geological epochs to develop standards for things that are not its main focus like cancer. CV, etc.

    ======================================

    The complications come in when we talk active vs inactive forms. Mankind never got cyanob12 until modern supplements. Before that if we ate the liver of a cow we got relatively more active b12. If we ate only vegetables all the time we got small amounts of it. The body uses intrinisc factor to help balance the absorption. If you eat a source with a lot of natural b12s then your body will cap it with a sublinear profile vs amount ingested. Even if you really hammer at those clams or oysters you start to essentially saturate at some level. But if your diet is low in B12 it will probably up the absorption coefficient some in order to try to balance things out. The body is pretty picky about this. Let's ignore people with intestinal damage due to Crohn's, Celiac's, etc. as those would hurt absorption directly I warrant.

    The reason I used above the term "reservoir" is a normal person does not huge amounts of active B12. On the other hand it won't hurt them as they will excrete what they don't need. Big deal. But if methylation processing is weakened via genetics or over time by epigenetic stresses the "reservoir" starts to run dry. Especially of useful active forms. Or at least the distribution of active forms and other intermediates are skewed due to poor ATP, lack of methyl donors, etc.

    I agree with Freddd the travesty is the medical community tries to refill that "reservoir" with cyanob12 which is really wrong. It should be refilled with the forms that we would have consumed. That being said methylation of the B12 (or adding adenosyl groups) is a dynamic process. If you consume methylb12, ORALLY I don't think it makes it through the gut lining as mb12 almost at all. It probably goes to hydroxy form and gets methylated on the other side in the liver and then once used by cells may get stored in glutathionyl form until it is recycled or removed. Sublingual is different. You drive a diffusion gradient through the cell layers in the oral cavity and push it into your bloostream though at still only a marginal rate compared to injectables.

    Personally if someone wants to take ORALLY mb12 or hb12 I am not sure there is a huge difference only because of the conversion needed. I don't think the methyl group makes it easily into the portal vein to the liver so there is no guarantee that the added methyl group just does not swim around in the gut for a bit then get bound by something else and excreted.

    But there is a huge difference imo between SUBLINGUAL or INJECTABLE mb12 and hb12. Now the dosing is very different with oral. And I am not sure the body is used to seeing that much mb12 or hb12 at once. In the former case that is what we want, where the amount is based on the individual of course and how bad the active "reservoir" is in trouble. In the latter case that means a lot of work to convert to active b12s. Now maybe one's genetics (like MTR, MTRR, etc.) do a lot to answer the question of how a subllingual or injectable hb12 will impact a person

    When I take sublingual hb12, even on the 1st day it is like someone sucked the energy right out of me. I also get a weird sore throat. I do pass out early and sleep but I feel kind of oddly ill (this is for 2000 mcg hb12 lozenges) I think with my MTRR mutations and low lithium levels, that the 2500 mcg of Enzymatic Therapy mb12 I take is probably only keeping pace with the reservoir. Certainly not overfilling it. Some on here take really high doses to force mb12 into the CNS, and trust me in the periphery they are overflowing that reservoir with intent, since that is the only way to get even satisfactory concentrations in the CNS.

    So like I said an adaptive reservoir. I think for those of one these forums upping Intrinsic factor is like shooting at a male African elephant with a BB gun. That is my personal opinion of course.
     

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