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Does Manganese Detox on its own?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Christopher, Mar 11, 2013.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    I've been having a bit of allergy symptoms lately, so was reading the Mast Cell thread in which someone said that 30mg manganese helped them lower histamine. I know better than to start with full doses of anything, but did so anyway last night and took 30mg of manganese.

    I actually felt pretty good last night and calm save for some mild insomnia, but nothing bad, and a sore throat. Today, though, the sore throat continues, along with severe agitation that's been cycling rapidly with depressive thoughts.

    I do have increased mental and physical energy as positives but along with the negative emotional instability.

    Of course I will not take any for a while and I'm sure these symptoms will die down as this has happened before with other supplements, but can anyone offer suggestion as to why it caused an initial increase in function but then the emotional instability?

    I also have some acne on my face since last night. If it is "detox", could it be dealing with ammonia?

    Thank you :]
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Christopher,

    it could be l-methylfolate insufficiency and MeCbl deficiencies, both depleted by the things proceeding that were stalled by manganese.
  3. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    thanks what do you mean? what do you think happened biologically once the manganese was ingested. ive taken mb12 and l-methylfolate before with similar but nowhere as severe effects.

    mb12 will give me (initially) sore throat and agitation with more physical and mental energy. what's happeend with the manganese is an exaggerated version of that reaction. thanks fredd.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Christopher,

    One of the oldest warnings in the taking supplements business is "watch out for induced deficiencies" if you only take a couple of items. My expereinces and observations of many others is that they have the largest responses to those items that are holding up the most things. Then as some as those things transact, they utilize the folate oe MeCbl or whatever other resources, and then things break again, differently. Its not unusual to find people have 10 or more induced deficiencies along the way if they are not taking the whole bunch concurrently. Occasionally one hits on the "most limiting factor" which starts lots of things hard and then crashes hard when the next most limiting factors kick in with their own deficiencies. Its like a person bouncing back and forth in methyltrap. The have tons of folate and severely ,limited MeCbl yet have folate deficiency symptoms. Then when just enough b12 is taken to break the methylblock, then it switches to b12 deficincy symptoms. Then when more MeCbl is given it switches back to folate deficiency symptoms. That can happen over and over until a person takes enough of BOTH at the same time to come intpo a stable non-methyltrap state. So perhapes whatever manganese kicked loose then demostrates that you are in a methyltrap.
    Linda828 likes this.
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    thanks fred. the only thing that's confusing me is what the manganese did. i definitely feel it moved something, but when i search for manganese and methylation not very much shows up.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Christopher,

    Oh I see what you mean now. Methylation can get blocked by a partial ATP block and that can be blocked by anthing for several steps in reactions. Same with methylation. So the answers are not always direct. There are secondary, teritiary and deeper deficiencies that can cause problems.
  7. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Christopher--There were several of us who (under the influence of a woman who analyzed our hair mineral tests) gave manganese a shot. Most of us took much smaller doses than you did, but none of us had particularly positive results. In fact, many of us had BAD experiences with manganese. In my case, the manganese revved me up, made my pulse race, and made me nauseas. Though fortunately,when I stopped taking it, the effects cleared within a few days.

    I wouldn't overanalyze your reaction too much. I think sometimes it's just as simple as not being the right thing for your body right now.

    PS You could also consider asking dannybex brenda merylg
    They might be able to give you more feedback on manganese.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_deficiency_(medicine):
    Manganese is a component of some enzymes and stimulates the development and activity of other enzymes. Manganese superoxide dismutase (MnSOD) is the principal antioxidant in mitochondria. Several enzymes activated by manganese contribute to the metabolism of carbohydrates, amino acids, and cholesterol.[1]

    Many nutritionists attribute joint pain, inflammation, arthritis, bursitis, dermatitis, and many diseases including osteoporosis, schizophrenia, diabetes, and epilepsy to manganese deficiency.[4]

    Another take on manganese deficiencies.

    Low levels of manganese in the body can result in impaired glucose tolerance, altered carbohydrate and fat metabolism, skeletal abnormalities, bone demineralization and malformation, stunted growth, decreased serum cholesterol levels, skin rash and elevated blood calcium, phosphorus and alkaline phosphatase levels. In addition, manganese deficiencies can result in infertility, seizures, weakness, nausea or vomiting, dizziness, hearing loss, iron-deficiency anemia, weak hair and nails and convulsions, blindness or paralysis in infants.

    Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/485034-the-symptoms-of-manganese-deficiency/#ixzz2NIIVOE3r
  9. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    Manganese is also part of the KPU protocol by Dr Klinghart which you can look up.

    I have too much zinc so I don't do the exact Klinghart KPU treatment, but I found the manganese works good an an empty stomach first thing in the morning. I take my other methylation/mitochondrial support supplements with food, but manganese works best on an empty stomach for me.
    alwayshopeful likes this.
  10. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    I am one of the people who took Manganese. I did fine with it until I increased the dose to 8 mg twice a day. At that time, I thought it was causing some liver ‘detox’ so I backed off to 4 mg 3 times/day, then 4 mg 4 times/day and was fine with that. The only reason I am not taking it now is that I ran out and I cannot get it locally. {No, I do not buy things over the internet.}

    In reviewing my notes, I see that this practitioner recommended that I take no more than 400% of the Daily Value of Mn, which would be 8 mg. I am not sure whether this is per dose or per day. The Institute of Medicine says the safe upper limit is 11 mg/day.

    I had been doing hair mineral analysis for a couple of years and my Mn level was always at the bottom of the normal range. With supplementation it went down a little. The other supplements I was taking concurrently were apparently using it up faster than I was taking it.

    According to the theory we were being treated under, some things you might need while taking Mn are B1, B2, B5, B6, B9 (from food), and B12. While this practitioner preferred that the folate come from food, I am not sure if she was familiar with methylfolate.
  11. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Hi

    Unfortunately manganese has had little research so not a lot is known about it even though it is very important for many enzyme actions though magnesium can be utilised instead (Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism Gropper, Smith and Groff).

    Glutamine synthetase may be a manganese metalloenzyme or may be activated by it.

    I think that the fact that you had an initial positive reaction shows that you need it but you took a very large dose - twice that I was taking after building up to it, under the directions of the before mentioned practitioner. Taking too much apparently caused an overdriving of something.

    If I was you I would concentrate on eating manganese rich foods with a small dose of perhaps 2mg to see how you go. Its a bit tricky taking one mineral due to other deficiencies tending to develop.
  12. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    Thank you guys for the advice. My head feels a bit clearer today but my emotions are still so strong from the reaction. Once the episode is fully over I'll come back and see if I can at least hypothesize what happened. It does feel as though it helped, but the dosage was just too high.

    Thank you guys.
  13. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    It's my understanding that if manganese is needed, it's not needed for long periods. And that's kind of what some of us may have experienced when we were following Christine's hair analysis "protocol". I actually spoke to her yesterday...she now says she was wrong about manganese...something about it releasing too much iron (???)...but is still confident that b2 (riboflavin) is probably depleted in patients with CFS because it's enzymes (FAD and FMN) are essential in methylation and transsulfuration pathways (and may get depleted by the other 'b's), plus it's needed for other functions as well.

    More info on the wikipedia page:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riboflavin

    p.s. She called me out of the blue, wondering if I knew anyone that Rich worked with...
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've heard from others that sometimes a mineral deficiency could provoke a strong reaction, but I assume a toxicity could also cause a strong reaction. I'm interested in hearing more about a "manganese detox". I increased my dose of manganese recently because Rich said that manganese deficiency could help with excitotoxicity and excess glutamate could contribute to a manganese deficiency. I'm not sure if I'm actually deficient in manganese though and I'm not interested in any more detoxing right now. I get plenty of manganese from my diet so maybe I'll lower the dose a bit.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I take 1mg of manganese a day in a multi mineral. I have no reason to think it isn't adequate but with arthritis going as a possilbe insufficiency. I might see if 1 more mg makes a difference.
  16. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    Dr Neil Nathan at Gordon Medical is somebody Rich worked with I believe. You probably knew that.. :O)

    Not sure if I still get the same initial kick from manganese anymore; probably because I got some other issue going on.
  17. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    My manganese is on the low side, so I've been supplementing, though I don't notice any particular effect from it. The dose I've ended up on is significantly lower than yours.

    I did want to add to this thread to be very cautious with high dose manganese supplements. Manganese is one of those supplements that can do some really nasty things if too much builds up in the body - permanent neurological damage, Parkinson's-like symptoms, etc. Still valuable to take if needed, but it's worth looking up the effects of manganese toxicity to be informed. And it might be a good idea to carefully monitor your dose to be sure you're not taking too much for your body to handle.

    As mentioned above, the safe upper limit is set at 11mg/day, though this might be lower if your liver wasn't functioning at peek capacity, or if there were other dysfunctions in your body related to manganese removal, or if levels of other things were off and interacting with it poorly. I know that with my body, since getting ill I get side effects from certain supplements at way lower levels than a healthy person is supposed to. My body just can't process them right for some reason. Overdose might be unlikely, but I would suggest that if you're noticing unpleasant effects, it might be wise to play it safe and reduce your intake (or remove it completely for a while so that your body's levels can get back down again).

    The initial symptoms of toxic levels of manganese include mood issues. I wouldn't mess around with it.
    SOC and Jarod like this.
  18. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    I don't know how to describe my reaction to it. My mood was horrendous, I had a small flareup of acne, and my throat became sore in a non-flu-like fashion. It was definitely too big of a dose, but I do not feel any worse off than before.

    I see Yasko uses manganese as needed to help with elevated ammonia toxicity:
    http://www.dramyyasko.com/resources/autism-pathways-to-recovery/chapter-6/

    This is relevant to me because I sometimes will experience a similar reaction to this manganese reaction when I take charcoal, which Yasko uses for ammonia as well. I get similar "detox" with maganese, charcoal, and FIR sauna sessions.

    My ID wants to test for MTHFR issues, so I guess I'll be learning more if that's an issue or not. Probably will run 23andme through Genetic Genie to get some more info too, because it seems I do get symptom effects from methylation and yasko supplements.
  19. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I found an interesting supplement with manganese although I'm not sure how many people are going to want to take it after reading this thread. It has 5 mg manganese, but also magnesium, malic acid, and coenzymated B1, B2, and B6 (P5P, R5P, and whatever B1 is called). I wish it didn't have so much manganese though:( Also, it does have magnesium carbonate which probably makes up a significant part of the magnesium content since they add malic acid and there's only 200 mg of glycine (meaning only a fraction is magnesium diglycinate or malate). If anyone's still interested though here's the link.
    http://www.integratedhealth.com/minerals/myo-mag.html

    The same company also sells both a b complex and multivitamin with only calcium folinate (aka folinic acid). Since some people need to limit their folic acid and methylfolate it might be worth considering. The two per day multiple is actually either 2 tablets or 4 capsules so that can be kind of confusing.
  20. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Why do you think 5 mg of manganese is a lot? 30 mg is way too high for my tastes. And I would worry about even taking 10 mg for a long time especially if you have a diet high in seeds, nuts, etc. But 5 mg is well under the upper tolerable intake limit. What effect does 5 mg of Mn do to you that you are reluctant about it? Just curious.

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