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Does B12 deplete folate...and/or vice versa?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dannybex, Oct 7, 2011.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hello all,

    Just wondering if anyone knows if taking b12 for a decent amount of time without taking folate can cause a depletion of folate -- since they both work together?

    And vice versa...?

    Thanks in advance,

    Dan
  2. Cindi

    Cindi Senior Member

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    I always crave for eggs when i take any form of b12 even at doses l?ke 500 mcg. I interpret this as need for folic acid.Does that happen to anyone else?(Normally my serum b12 is high and folic acid is within the limits.)
  3. FogLeg

    FogLeg

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    I don't know, but my small experience might fit that idea. I was trying to follow Freddd's B12 protocol, and was taking 6mg of B12 and 800mcg of methylfolate every day for about a month. I was deliberately avoiding any supplements with folic acid, and any foods likely to be fortified with it. I was quite surprised when I started noticing redness at the corners of my mouth (never happened before that I can remember), but having read most of Freddd's posts about paradoxical folate deficiency I had to conclude that this looked just like angular cheilitis and maybe a folate deficiency symptom.

    I did first try increasing the methylfolate, but found this pretty hard to tolerate. So instead, I've reduced the B12 to 3.5mg (whilst keeping the folate the same), and the corners of my mouth healed up again in no time. I'll have to try and see if I can make it happen again soon ;)
  4. Cindi

    Cindi Senior Member

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    I remember reading that problem at corners of mouth could also be sign of b2 deficiency.
  5. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Yes...I concur with Cindi. I've read in many places (and in studies) that cheilitis is typically due to a b2 deficiency.

    Regarding the eggs craving thing...that's interesting. There are so many different nutrients in eggs, especially sulfur compounds, that it could be a sign of a need for folate, but also many other things.

    ??? :)
  6. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Here's an example of what I've found on other forums...this from 2008:

    "My doc said I was low in folate so I neede supplements but it is crucial when having B12 injections as they work together and large doses of B12 can pull down the folate this works a treat for me I take one with my injections...."

    And this study suggests that 'higher serum folate' can result in higher homocysteine and MMA levels, cognitive impairment, and anemia, if one is b12 deficient:

    http://www.pnas.org/content/104/50/19995.full

    "We recently examined the interaction between serum folate and vitamin B12 status in relation to anemia, macrocytosis, and cognitive impairment in older participants (age ?60 years) in the 19992002 United States National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES) (11).

    As expected, low vitamin B12 status was associated with all three abnormalities. Furthermore, when vitamin B12 status was normal, high serum folate was related to protection from cognitive impairment.

    Among those with low vitamin B12 status, however, high serum folate was directly associated with both anemia and cognitive impairment. Consistent with our findings for subjects with normal vitamin B12 status, several cross-sectional studies (1215), as well as some prospective investigations (1619), have reported direct relations between folate status and cognition. On the other hand, Morris et al. (20) found that higher folate intake was associated with more rapid cognitive decline in a cohort of ?4,000 community-dwelling elderly people whose vitamin B12 status was unknown."

    "In vitamin B12 deficiency, high tHcy reflects impaired methionine synthase activity, whereas high MMA indicates impaired methylmalonyl-CoA mutase activity. Consequently, our findings suggest that both pathways of vitamin B12 metabolism are adversely affected by high serum folate despite the direct involvement of folate only in methionine synthase activity."

    So...do we first 'load up' on b12...and then slowly add folate? Or probably better, try and get a serum folate level tested? Not sure if medicaid would pay for that...

    And/or...could this interaction perhaps explain why some have bad reactions to the methylfolate (or other folates as well)...because they're b12 levels are low or 'trapped' due to toxins??? So confusing...

    Hopefully Rich can stop by and comment.

    d.
  7. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Another couple of links:

    http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/folate

    "Intake of supplemental folic acid should not exceed 1,000 micrograms (?g) per day to prevent folic acid from triggering symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency [10]"

    Note that they're saying 'folic acid', not 'folate'.

    But here's another study:

    "In cross-sectional studies, low levels of folate and vitamin B12 have been associated with poor cognition and dementia. Results are quite controversial and a debate continues in the literature. Still not completely understood are the differential roles of folate and vitamin B12 in memory acquisition and cognitive development. More intriguing and not fully understood is the rule that treating a vitamin B12-deficient patient with folate may exacerbate the neurological consequences of either deficiency."

    ???

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