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Does Anyone Know Why GABA And Theanine Both Make Me MORE Anxious?

Discussion in 'Hypersensitivity and Intolerance' started by Jigsaw, Mar 4, 2017.

  1. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    No, the CBS studies seem to be solid and consistent. Yasko's claims about the CBS SNPs contradicts the science, and many other methylation sources simply parrot her.

    If you can provide a link to a published paper showing that those CBS SNPs can cause problems, many of us would be very interested to see it.
     
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  2. gerard5

    gerard5

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    I ask you Valentjn, is there anything unusual that there would be a difference of opinion amongst the scientific community?

    And is there anything strange at all that there would be other peers in the Medical community that are in agreement with each other? Or furthermore that there would be a minority on two sides of a disagreement between those bodies?

    And, I do not wish to argue with you Valentjn, or anybody unless it is to keep the honor of this forum. If there is something specific you would like to discuss I am sure that I would gladly be corrected and find agreement with you on things if they have a factual basis or if I had put forth any incorrect information. Don't we all make many mistakes? There are very many arguments out there and studies take years and years to develop, Dr's don't always wait for that development to make decisions, they are in the business of saving lives. You bring things in that are controversial and almost speculative in appearance. It takes time for these things to be sorted out. I'm asking you to let those that have that level of expertise and that are credentialed to do so settle their own arguments at that level. And If you want me, Really, to discuss that something here, please be concise about what exactly you are referring to. Is it really that CBS SNPS have no negative impact, only positive, on the Methylation process? I wonder how things would work if CBS were suddenly not even there. There are a lot of things we don't know and there are things we need to be presumptive about without a formal study, some of them Turn Out, to be incorrect. It happens in Medicine and in the real world all the time. Can we have a friendship and be at peace with each other?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2017
  3. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    Science isn't about opinion. It's about evidence. There is evidence that CBS C699T "+/+" causes a very mild and slightly beneficial up-regulation of the CBS gene. There is no evidence that any of the CBS SNPs listed by Yasko cause any problems. This can be seen by searching and reading the research.

    Yes - but someone calling herself a doctor should be interested in accuracy. Reporting a dozen or more SNPs to cause problems when there is literally no basis for it is not simply an innocent error. And since her forum expressly forbids any "negative" opinions or discussions, it would seem that she is not interested in seeing her mistakes corrected.

    Like what? Science? :p

    Basically the only CBS SNPs which have a major impact and cause any sort of problems are the ones which cause large down-regulations of the gene. The only actual excessive up-regulation in the real world is in the case of Down Syndrome, where there are three copies of the CBS gene (and the rest of the chromosome). Yasko somehow equates a very mild and very common minor up-regulation with the extreme up-regulation seen in Down Syndrome or when removing half of the entire gene in an experiment involving a lab yeast. It's nonsensical.

    That would be a complete down-regulation of the gene. Yasko suggests that it's a mild and common up-regulation which is somehow catastrophic.

    There have been formal studies for some of the SNPs, which prove Yasko wrong. The others lack research, but that doesn't leave room for playing guessing games as a result. It is known that most SNP variants in the human genome do not have an impact, so if making any guess at all, it should be that a SNP is harmless until proven otherwise. And even if guessing that a SNP does something, you'd have to flip a coin to guess if it's an up-regulation or a down-regulation.

    I'm afraid I don't see the relevance. Challenging disproven and unfounded claims has nothing to do with relationships, and I will continue to challenge those claims.
     
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  4. gerard5

    gerard5

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    Let's not go there. This should take us to back to high Glutamate and the GABA tables. this is a crucial discussion. Glutamate, one of the most prominent Neurotransmitters in the brain, dysregulation there is a huge and potentially fatal or possibly worse wind up with Alzheimers Path vegetized, this is serious and it happens to a great many. Here is some info for you just to get a snapshot at how vast and complex this system is. Also check the links on the left side of the page; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamate_(neurotransmitter)

    I am not a scientist or a Neurologist but hopefully you will be able to find your way out of your Glutamate issues and I know first hand they can be dangerous, very dangerous to deal with in its Excitotoxicity states, I have used that term to several Docs and watched them scratch their heads. My primary care Physician must be waiting for a big symptom, I am not willing to wait on my Medical System.

    On the other hand I thank the Dr for the labs that he was able to order despite, it helped me find out about what I needed to know to plot my way on down the course. And a recent survey of my labs of the last month helped key me forward. I think I am very close. I am still drug free except for the minors that have OTC eq's. Such as Bendryl, IBU, Tylenol. Also on Epclusa for Virus. Almost done with that.

    Right now I am looking into Pyruvate Dehydrogenase in the Citric Acid Cycle. The key compounds are NADH and Pyruvate off the top, Cal Pyruvate mentioned earlier. Very soon I will have it and report back if possible. The Calcium uptake looks safe enough with only a fraction RDA of added Calcium. I had a great response to NADH, It's very expensive though and did not resolve my issue so I dropped it, three months ago.

    This is Glucogenesis process, this is central to Fatigue states and connection to Glutamate. It regulates Lactic Acid levels, I had almost forgot about Lactic Acidosis until Valentijn gave me the pointer. I'm on it and have had multiple episodes. Thanks again.

    This is huge for me and our discussion should continue and I only know in part the Pathology, it is connected everywhere and seemingly 1000's of things could throw it off. Enough for now though, so with thankfulness I hope you have a Joy filled Friday night everybody, Cinco De Mayo!
     
  5. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    According to this, pyridoxine-5-phosphate transfers sulfur, acting as an enzyme that helps the liver, so I would have thought that it should help rather than hinder metabolisatiin of sulfur:

    http://www.jbc.org/content/194/1/109.full.pdf
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
  6. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Thanks.

    I'm doing better mood-wise on iodine.

    Why on earth would I be "considering to rule out GABA"? - That implies I carried on taking it even though it produced unbearable anxiety in me. I'm not masochistic. I stopped taking it as soon as it produced anx. Theanine did it first, and I stopped theanine. Then GABA.


    So I don't take it. If it worked for me, I'd happily take it. It doesn't, hence my thread. I want to understand why it makes me anxious if I take it. I'm not going to take anything that gives me anxiety, unless, as is the case with iodosupplementation, mild, transient, anx is part and parcel of flushing out toxic halides, heavy metals, etc, and rebalancing deranged hormones.

    I've been taking p-5-p for several years and my response to it is constant. Without it, my mood sinks. I don't convert pyridoxine.

    Chemo was ECMF, the F being Fluorouracil, a fluorine which undoubtedly pushed more iodine out of the way and exacerbated everything because it further screwed my already struggling thyroid process.

    As far as I'm aware, the theory is that a normal BBB won't allow GABA across, so any response, +ve or -ve, to GABA ingestion implies poor BBB integrity, or "leaky BBB". A healthy BBB won't let it in or out.

    My diet is fine. I eat clean for me. Nothing packed and processed (as in preformed meats, stuff with additives, hormones, pesticides, etc). No tap water since the early 90's. All either bottled for drinking or triple filtered for washing and cooking food.

    I don't have the extent of glutamate issues that @Valentijn has, luckily. Yes, I still react to certain things, but iodine seems to be helping with that. I haven't had MSG for decades. I won't carry on avoiding glutamine, either, nor glycine, because both are involved in glutathione production. Iodosupplementation results in higher production of thyroid hormones, and production of thyroid hormones creates hydrogen peroxide as a by-product. Glutathione peroxidase is required to neutralise hydrogen peroxide.


    If improvements continue with Lugol's, I might even be able to have a glass or 8 of wine again at some point without a massive migraine with attendant vomiting.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
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  7. gerard5

    gerard5

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    Thanks, I do avoid the B6 in favor of the P5P.
     
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  8. gerard5

    gerard5

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    Sorry Jigsaw, I didn't mean to imply anything of that sort. I just never heard yet of anxiety issues with GABA, that's all. For a while I benefited I dropped it because of the non-benefit. I believe you that it caused an increase. My Anxiety is directly related to Glutamate due and to my previous leaky BBB and using GABA indicated that and as a result. With Glutamine and L-Theanine I verified my Glutamate issue. Then later on with Glycine.

    Thinking I had enough factors out of the way I tried Collagen and boom again, what I think is a Glutamate>Lactic Acidosis flare. I had forgotten the LA until Valentijn approached me directly.

    This kept my forgetter out of the equation. I have benefited greatly from those type of encounters and made friends sometimes, and they have potentially saved my physical life. Hopefully I can keep myself and maybe some others out of trouble by being here, huh?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2017
  9. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    I think a lot of us do.
     
  10. gerard5

    gerard5

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    The reason is that I have issues with converting Sulfites and that causes toxicity issues. As a result I place limits on my Sulfur intake to keep those clear.
     
  11. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Skippa

    Just found out that black tea, which is different from green or white tea by virtue of being an older leaf, has really quite significant amounts of fluoride per tea-bag.

    Fluoride is one of the major halides that blocks iodine from being picked up and used by each one of our 100 trillion cells, hence contributing if not actually causing iodine deficiency states like hypothyroidism, hypoadrenlism, type 2 diabetes, PCOS, allergies, auto-immune diseases, hormone imbalances, poor immune function, cancers, etc., etc.

    Guess we're lucky we prefer coffee! :eek:
     
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  12. flitza

    flitza Senior Member

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    The resveratrol and calcium pyruvate still working?
     
  13. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Sadly, not nearly as well as when I first tried them ..... I then went to high dose vitamin C which helped, for awhile, but also made me acidic and thus achy and tired, though I slept better. And then I tried sodium ascorbate and did not get acidic, but didn't sleep well either ..... The night before last was pretty bad, so last night after 1-1/2 hours of sleep and then 2 hours of being awake (and no sleep in sight) I took 1/4 of a trazodone - I think they're 50 mg. tabs so it was 12.5 mg, and I fell asleep finally and all total got 6.5 or maybe even 7 hours of sleep, more than I have had in awhile.

    I don't want to rely on the trazodone and am considering getting an Alpha Stim or similar device that was recommended but they're very expensive! but if they help me sleep and I don't have to take drugs, it would be worth it. Fortunately there's a 30-day return policy on the Alpha Stim, and I think 60 days on something similar made by Fisher Wallace, which is also a little cheaper. I never expected this ordeal! :eek::bang-head:

    Vitamin C is supposed to be a glutamate scavenger as well, so i'm continuing with a fair amount of it.
     
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  14. flitza

    flitza Senior Member

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    This is purely anecdotal, but with reference to your thoughts about an alpha-stim. I bought one many years ago and used it as instructed, religiously. I stopped after a while for reasons I no longer remember. What I do remember is that at the end I was convinced it had harmed me and threw it in the garbage. Really.
    Do you use LDN? Have you had a sleep study?
     
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  15. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @flitza - dang! sorry to hear that about the alpha stim ... someone else told me that it had helped them. I presume you recovered from the harm you felt it did to you, I hope?

    I've tried ldn at least twice and possibly 3 times, can't remember. But each time it made me quite spacey and tired such that it was hard to function - e.g., the first time I tried it we had heavy rains and I remember watching my living room ceiling leak for 3 days before it occurred to me that I should do something about besides putting out buckets ... that made me realize I'd better stop the ldn :whistle: And I was on a very low dose, maybe 0.25 mg. or 0.5 max.

    I've never had a sleep study and don't know how it could be helpful. There is no question my sleep is in the toilet and the severe insomnia has hit I am certain because of the lorazepam taper. I've been off it 3 months now and from what I read, it's not unusual to have problems for a year or more after stopping, which is hard to think about. I'm presuming that if a sleep study shows abnormalities, the remedy will be to hand out something like Ambien which I don't want to take. I don't have symptoms of sleep apnea. If doctors were truly helpful with sleep besides handing out ambien and anti-depressants, then I guess I would be willing to have a sleep study done. But I've never heard of them having any real solutions.

    I did have sleep problems for several years before starting the lorazepam 10 years ago (which is why I started it). I did have high cortisol at night at one time and Seriphos was great for that, but that does not seem to be the issue here.

    I may give coffea cruda a try, I took it years ago and I think it was a little helpful, though I don't know if it could touch what I'm going through now.

    I'm also thinking of giving acupuncture a go, but it's expensive and not covered by Medicare and I believe you have to go a lot to get relief. So I probably can't afford it. If it only took a few visits, I could do that.

    One more thing I thought about today is reflexology - it might be helpful - and something maybe I could do myself.

    Or I may just hired someone to knock me over the head each night! :sluggish::aghhh::woot:
     
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  16. flitza

    flitza Senior Member

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    I've had two sleep studies. The first around the time I developed FM about 9-10 years ago and the second a few weeks ago. Not a pleasant experience but informative. The first showed I have narcolepsy and since that time I've been taking Xyrem. It's worked quite well over the years and I no longer have daytime sleepiness.
    I developed ME/CFS about 1 1/2 ago and found out, although I have none of the usual risk factors that I have hypertension. The cardiologist wanted to r/o sleep apnea as a cause of the hypertension so I had the second study. I had noticed that although I had always been a mouth breather at night, since i developed ME I've been breathing with my mouth closed, even though it exacerbated that feeling of not getting enough air. Anyway, I do have mild to moderate sleep apnea (waking up from it about 14-15 times and hour) except when I'm in Xyrem induced deep sleep. So I'm probably going to get a mandibular advancement device. And hopefully that will get rid of the hypertension without having to take any meds.

    Bottom line: imho sleep studies can sometimes yield useful info.
    BTW. Went through benzo withdrawal (it had been prescribed for restless legs about 8 years before (and I no longer have that about 2 years ago. It was phenomenally difficult. Not sure I've completely recovered yet and it's been more than a year. I wish you an easier time with that.
     
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  17. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    After more than a year of taking 750mg GABA at night (along with some other things for sleep) something shifted and it started giving me side effects.
    It used to be a champ at helping me fall sleep; then out of nowhere it made my hands, arms, and face severely pins-and-needles, and I'd get palpitations and start gasping for breath from air hunger. So weird! Happily these symptoms only lasted for about ten minutes, but they were a very unpleasant ten minutes. Needless to say I stopped taking GABA once I discerned that was the culprit, but I'm curious, like OP, as to what the mechanism of action is for these side effects, and why they started from one day to the next.
     
  18. Runner5

    Runner5

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    I had two bottles of L-Theanine, first gave me jitters and felt like caffeine - a lot of caffeine (don't recall manufacturer but had brown bottle gold label). Second bottle was fine, no issues with it being energizing.

    The issue being the manufacture of the L-Theanine, not actually L-Theanine itself. Just another brain wrinkle :D
     
  19. ChickenBear

    ChickenBear

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    I know everyone has already basically covered this for you but my two cents:

    I think you should work on securing/rebuilding your BBB. It sounds like it's weak and that the GABA and Theanine are flooding it so you feel bad.

    Again, this has likely been touched on but GABA should not be able to penetrate the BBB. So if you're taking a pure GABA supplement rather than some type of precursor, and it's really affecting you (either positively or negatively) then something is wrong with your BBB.

    I believe that no neuro type supps/drugs are going on to work for you the way they should until you fix this. I'm in the same boat and instead of piling on nootropic stacks (as my doc initially wanted me to do) what's actually working better for me is simply trying to tamp down the excess inflammation in my brain. Which I'm doing using krill oil, currently. Next I will try folding in Berberine, Resveratrol, etc. Just supplementing w/ an EFA has improved my mood/brain fog more than 5HTP, LDN, L-Tryp, Theanine, etc.

    Here's a good post about strengthening your Blood Brain Barrier:

    http://www.optimallivingdynamics.co...eatments-causes-gaba-injury-hyperpermeability

    I know people have also talked to you about the GABA/Glutatmate seesaw and I think it's very tricky There is a LOT of info from this health practitioner's blog so hopefully you won't get too overwhelmed:

    http://www.holistichelp.net/blog/how-to-increase-gaba-and-balance-glutamate/

    Good luck to you!
     
  20. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    I am not sure if you resolved your issue, but it sounded like dopamine to me too. If you want to know for sure you can try an experiment. For example, you can take Mucuna Pruriens which will really ramp up dopamine. You can also try noni or white mulberry leaf which supposedly lower dopamine.
     

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