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does anyone know if this a good methylation protocol?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by knackers323, Feb 12, 2011.

  1. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    I am taking 2ml B12 under tounge twice daily

    a compound of vitamin A
    B-carotine
    vit C,D,K,E,B-1,B-2,B-6,B-12
    niacin
    biotin
    pantothenic acid
    calcium citrate
    iodine
    magnesium citrate
    zinc citrate
    selenium
    copper
    manganese citrate
    chromium picolinate
    molybdenum
    boron
    citric acid
    malic acid
    carnitine
    glycine
    co enzyme q10
    lipioc acid
    p-5-p
    folinic acid
    tmg
    tyrosine
    5-htp
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, knackers.

    You have a lot of great supplements in your regimen, but it's difficult to answer your question without knowing the dosages.

    The key supplements for lifting the partial methylation cycle block are B12 and folate. We have some disagreement about which form of B12 should be used, but we agree that it should not be cyanocobalamin. I prefer hydroxocobalamin to start, and Freddd prefers a combination of methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin. You reported that you take 2 ml of B12 sublingually daily, but you didn't mention the concentration of B12 in your supplement, so we don't know how many milligrams of B12 that amounts to.

    You reported that you take folinic acid as your form of folate. Again, we don't have the dosage. Folinic works O.K. for some people, but others, because of their genetic polymorphisms, will do better on L5-methyl tetrahydrofolate (sold as Metafolin, FolaPro, MethylMate B, and Deplin).

    It looks as though you are getting the vitamin and mineral cofactors. Since we don't know the status of your amino acids, we can't say whether you should be supplementing them or not, but they are necessary as feed material for the methylation cycle and related pathways.

    I hope this helps.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Knackers,

    I have to agree with Rich all the way on this. More specificity is needed to know what you are actually doing. Then if you track all the symptoms so you can see the changes going on we can see what is unaffected and changes can be made accordingly. Some B-complex brands are superior to others based on doses, balance between components, which components are included in active forms and the like. Specific brands of at least methylb12 can be 100x more effective than other brands. Hydroxcbl might be effective on as many as 100 symptoms. Adb12/mb12 can be effective on 300 or more symptoms. Some ways of taking b12 can be 25x more effective than other ways. Good luck.
  4. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    hi guys thankyou very much for your responses.

    MeCo b12. that is all that is on the label, I think all this is made in a compounding chemist.

    each daily serve of one teaspoon contains

    vit a 2500iu
    b carotene 5500iu
    vit c 750mg
    vit d 400iu
    vit k 100mcg
    vit e 300 iu
    vit b1 13mg
    vit b2 riboflavin 20mg
    niacin 60mg
    vit b6 140mg
    vit b12 75mcg
    biotin 1350mcg
    b5 pantothenic acid 65 mg
    calcium citrate 500mg
    iodine 75mcg
    magnesium citrate 250mg
    zinc citrate 35mg
    selenium 150mcg
    copper 3mg
    manganese citrate 5mg
    chromium picolinate 200mcg
    molybdenum 25mcg
    boron 1mg
    citric acid 200mg
    malic acid 200mg
    carnitine 400mg
    glycine 3000mg
    co e q10 60 mg
    lipioc acid 100mg
    p5p 10mg
    molybdenum 150mcg
    folinic acid 3200mg
    tmg 2gms
    tyrosine 250 mg
    5 htp 300mg

    I have been taking this for about 1 yearand have seen no benefit. any reccomendations guys? thanks again
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Knackers,

    There is so little mb12 in that, 75mcg, that if you have any problem absorbing if for any of many reasons, you may only be absorbing 1%, 0.75mcg which is almost totally worthless. I also doubt that it has 2grams of TMG and 3 .2 grams of foolinic acid as that would fill the teaspoon. The numbers can't possibly be accurate as it would take far more than one teaspoon to contain it.

    If you want something likely to be effective read http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/showthread.php?t=62327 and then let's discuss it. Also come over to http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?188-B-12-The-Hidden-Story&p=157016#post157016 for discussion of an often effective protocol. After a year and no effectiveness maybe it is time to switch to a much more likely to be effective program.
  6. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    hi fredd, thanks very much for your opinion.

    do you believe i am being lied to about what is in my compounded supplements?

    if I added jarrow 5000mcg methyl b12 sublingual

    solgar methylfolate

    countrylife active dibencozide b12 3000mcg

    do you think that would be enough to do the job? thanks again mate
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Knackers,

    do you believe i am being lied to about what is in my compounded supplements

    I believe that there are at least some mistakes in listing contents, as to quantity or units of measurements. For instance 3200mg of folinic acid is 1000 times what might be reasonable. 3200 mcg is possible, 3200MG (3.2 GRAMS) is not at all likely as that would take 400 bottles of 100 x 800mcg dose tablets to equal the amount in one teaspoon plus leave room for everything else. I doubt it.

    One teaspoon of sugar is 4.2 grams. I teaspoon of water is 5 grams. This list has way too much in it to fit in a teaspoon. So 3 grams of glycine and 3.2 grams of folinic acid and half a gram of calcium and 3/4 gram of C, 2 grams of TMG and another couple of grams in all of other things just doesn't add up to anything that will fit in a teaspoon. It would take 1 teaspoon 3 or 4 times a day at the very least to fit that all in.


    In any case the amounts are in a fixed ratio and impossible to fine tune. The amount of vit D is inadequate. The b-complex amounts on a twice a day basis would problably be adequate. The minerals are generally low (bulky things, minerals), trace minerals look fine, vit C is low. The carnitine is probably the wrong form and needs to be taken on an empty stomach and I bet this is taken with food.

    Adding Metafolin and Jarrow mb12 and Country Life adb12 would go a long ways towards helping. Then getting some separates to change the timing and the relative quantities of things would be helpful but that could be part of the fine tuning. Potassium is a must to add to things to prevent trouble if you do start healing suddenly.
  8. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    cut off Copper, this inhibits G6PDH
    lower B6 very much (I would cut off this, this may stimmulate the CBS and increase ammonia and taurin. I wouldnt take Glycine. take only very little amounts ob p5p, think of increasing Q10 or better taking the aktive form which is ubiquinol, Magnesium is missing, I would increase vit C if you can tolerate it, take it every 4 hours because it will be destroyed after about 4 hours. Cut of TMG dont take more than 150mg!! lower folinic acid not more than 800g, Yasko works with much lower doses, but I cant come along with lower dosages. Nucleotides are missing, look at the Yasko shop. 5-htp is very high, do you have proven low serotonine? If not I would lower this. Manganese is rather high with 5mg. usual dose is about 2mg. methyl-folate the most important one is missing. B12 dosage is probably to low, think of daily injections. Phosphatidylserine is missing. think of doing the genetic testing Yasko offers, this would let us know more where to focus on.
  9. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    thanks guys. what do you think rich?
  10. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, knackers323. I'm pretty much in agreement with what Freddd and Joopiter have posted. Here is the currrent version of the Simplified Treatment Approach protocol:

    April 18, 2009


    SIMPLIFIED TREATMENT APPROACH
    FOR LIFTING THE METHYLATION CYCLE BLOCK
    IN CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME (Revised)

    (Extracted from the full treatment program
    developed by Amy Yasko, Ph.D., N.D.
    which is used primarily in treating autism [1])

    SUPPLEMENTS

    1. FolaPro [2]: tablet (200mcg) daily
    2. Actifolate [3]: tablet daily
    3. General Vitamin Neurological Health Formula [4]: start with tablet and work up dosage as tolerated to 2 tablets daily
    4. Phosphatidyl Serine Complex [5]: 1 softgel capsule daily
    5. Activated B12 Guard [6]: 1 sublingual lozenge daily

    All these supplements can be obtained from http://www.holisticheal.com, or all but the third one can be obtained from other sources.
    The first two supplement tablets are difficult to break into quarters. We recommend that you obtain (from any pharmacy) a good-quality pill splitter to assist with this process. They can, alternatively, be crushed into powders, which are then separated on a flat surface using a knife or single-edged razor blade, and the powders can be mixed together. They can be taken orally with water, with or without food.
    These supplements can make some patients sleepy, so in those cases they take them at bedtime. They can be taken at any time of day, with or without food.
    GO SLOWLY. As the methylation cycle block is lifted, toxins are released and processed by the body, and this can lead to an exacerbation of symptoms. IF THIS HAPPENS, try smaller doses, every other day. SLOWLY work up to the full dosages.
    Although this treatment approach consists only of nonprescription nutritional supplements, a few patients have reported adverse effects while on it. Therefore, it is necessary that patients be supervised by physicians while receiving this treatment.


    [1] Yasko, Amy, and Gordon, Garry, The Puzzle of Autism, Matrix Development Publishing, Payson, AZ, 2006, p. 49.
    [2] FolaPro is a registered trademark of Metagenics, Inc.
    [3] Actifolate is a registered trademark of Metagenics, Inc.
    [4] General Vitamin Neurological Health Formula is formulated and supplied by Holistic Health Consultants LLC.
    [5] Phosphatidyl Serine Complex is a product of Vitamin Discount Center.
    [6] Activated B12 Guard is a registered trademark of Perque LLC.

    Rich
  11. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    thanks again guys

    do you feel that an organic acids urine test is enough to show a methylation problem?

    mine showed- xanthurenate high
    formiminoglutamate high
    vanilmandelate very low
    homovanillate low

    based on this do you think methylation is a problem for me? thanks
  12. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    yes, for sure!
  13. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, knackers323.

    The high formiminoglutamate indicates that your cells are low in tetrahydrofolate. If your methylmalonate is also at least somewhat elevated, that indicates a deficiency in B12 function. The combination of these two is usually a good indication of a partial methylation cycle block.

    The low VMA and HVA indicate problems with the neurotransmitters metabolism. Methylation is involved in neurotransmitters metabolism, so this would at least be consistent with a methylation problem.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  14. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi Rich
    my methylmalonate was flagged high on a urine test, but formiminoglutamate was almost low. What does that mean, exactly? Thanks
    Liz
  15. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    ok. could this alone account for the overwhelming fatigue and constant hot feeling I have?
  16. Joopiter76

    Joopiter76 Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    when I take too much methyl-folate e.g. 4 mg a day I become weak. Do you have an explanation for this?? thanx
  17. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    hi again, i found out that my methyl b12 liquid has 3000mcg in each spray. i am having about four sprays twice per day. i am still having the other compounded vitamins.

    through experimentation and frustration I have also been adding solgar folate 800mcg up to two per day
    country life active b-12 dibencozide up to four per day
    jarrow methyl b-12 5000mg up to four per day

    the only effects I have seen is aslight fluttering in the chest at times.
    does my lack of response indicate anything?
    should I be carefull? could I suddenly start seeing some effects?

    thanks again for your help
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Knackers,

    In my experience there can often be some other factor that really holds up the show. The specific items I have experienced or been reported to on, in addition to those you have already mentioned, are zinc (increasing to 65mg daily), l-carnitine fumarate (no other form did anything), SAM-e, 5000 IU Vit D3, magnesium and b-complex TWICE a day. That is assuming that the b12 sublinguals are being held as ling as possible, 2 hours if possible. The l-carnitine fumarate had far more effect than anything else except the mb12 and it's intense effects lasted longest of all.

    Also, I found that my need for Metafolin varied considerably and after the glutathione I needed 6 times as much to not have deficiency symptoms.

    The Metafolin should be taken in several separate doses per day. I find it is most effective taken on an empty stomach if possible at the time I start take my b12 doses. Assuming that your symptoms would normally be responsive to active b12s and folates, then something else is holding it up. It may be that the folinic acid at 3200 mcg (presumed) interfers with the methylfolate. All I did was substitute 800mcg of folinic for 800mcg of Metafolin of 4800mcg total, and in a month I had folate deficiency symptoms back. I then went up to 8800mcg of Metafolin to get effectiveness again, with hopefully a little more margin.

    When I took a mix of carnitines, it stopped working. I needed l-carnitine fumarate without any other form for it too work.

    From my experiences there are still reasons for it not to work in what else you are taking.

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