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Doctors and Bankers: Unaccountable Professions?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Daisymay, Nov 5, 2011.

  1. Daisymay

    Daisymay Senior Member

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    http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Doctors-and-Bankers.htm

    Doctors and Bankers: Unaccountable Professions?


    Margaret Williams 4th November 2011


    On 3rd November 2011 The Daily Telegraph published an article in the Comment & Features section entitled How much more can we take? -- As exhaustion forces a leading banker to take a rest, Robert Colvile wonders if life has ever been more stressful.

    The article referred to Antonio Horta-Osorio, chief executive of Lloyds Banking Group, who has been forced to take a rest as he is apparently suffering from physical and mental exhaustion, but it began by telling the story of a City analyst named Simon:

    People think of the working day as starting when youre at your desk, says Simon But thats not how it works any more. It starts the moment you wake up in the morning.you pick up your BlackBerry to check on Bloomberg, to see what it means for you and your company. Your brains in gear from six, six thirty and then its on to breakfast meetings, research, one-on-ones with clients, briefings, flights. Even when youre on the train home, or eating dinner with the family, the phone will go, and youll have to talk to the office in New York.At some point, you find that you just cant get out bed in the morning.

    Earlier this year, Simon was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome: when he spoke to the specialists, he was told that 95 per cent of the cases they were seeing involved city workers just like him.

    The effects of stress are also, as Simon explains, the chief suspect when it comes to his own struggles with chronic fatigue.

    Yet again, chronic fatigue has been confused with the chronic fatigue syndrome.

    This Daily Telegraph article conveys harmful misinformation because the two are not the same; however, such confusion seems to serve the purpose of those who wish to conflate the two disorders and who insist that chronic fatigue is the same as chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME).

    What is disturbing is that the specialists whom Simon consulted told him that 95% of the cases of chronic fatigue syndrome they were seeing involved city workers just like him (ie. suffering from burnout). This is vastly different from ME, where there is not only incapacitating exhaustion and cognitive impairment but also significant, measurable, reproducible neuroimmune, cardiovascular, endocrine, gastrointestinal and musculo-skeletal dysfunction not demonstrated in burnout. To the insufficiently informed clinician, there may be superficial similarities but the two disorders show contrasting HPA-axis disturbances: HPA axis functioning in burnout patients has been found to be normal (Clinical burnout is not reflected in the cortisol awakening response, the day-curve or the response to low-dose dexamethasone suppression test. PMC Mommersteeg et al. Psychoneuroendocrinology: 2005:doi:10.1016/j.psyneuen.2005.07.003), whereas in ME/CFS the cortisol response is almost invariably reduced.

    The egregious and unscientific amalgamation of different disorders once again highlights the urgent need for the use of the International Consensus Criteria (ICC) to diagnose ME/CFS in order to prevent such iatrogenic harm.

    Perhaps not surprisingly, the Wessely School psychiatrists whose professional lifes work has been centred on refuting the concept of ME/CFS as a medical disorder remain resolutely opposed to the use of the ICC; in 1992 (before the ICC existed) the Wessely School gave directions that in ME/CFS, the first duty of the doctor is to avoid legitimisation of symptoms (CIBA Foundation Symposium on CFS held on 12-14th May 1992) and they have been firmly opposed to any sub-typing of CFS for the last quarter of a century. Currently, the correct use of the ICC could prove that, in relation to ME/CFS, their entire professional life has been based on a myth created by themselves.

    As Ioannidis points out: History of science teaches us that scientific endeavour has often in the past wasted effort in fields with absolutely no yield of true scientific informationOf course, investigators working in any field are likely to resist accepting that the whole field in which they have spent their careers is a null field. Howeveradvances in technology and experimentation may lead eventually to the dismantling of a scientific field (PLoS Medicine 2005:2:8:e124).

    Have advances in technology finally shown that the Wessely School have indeed spent their careers in a null field in relation to their efforts to designate ME/CFS as a behavioural disorder?

    It would seem so, as the recent study by Norwegian oncologists (PloS One: October 2011: 6:10:e26358) seems to prove that the Wessely Schools efforts over the last 25 years are devoid of merit, because one of the authors of that study, Professor Olav Mella, is clear: Based on observations and literature studyME in many patients principally is an immunologic, probably autoimmune, disease (http://bergento.no/2011/09/cancer-medication-proves-beneficial-to-me-patients/).

    Dr Nancy Klimas, Professor of Medicine at the University of Miami and Director of the ME/CFS Research Centre -- one of the authors of the ICC and one of the worlds leading experts in ME/CFS -- has commented on the Norwegian study that successfully used the anti-cancer agent Rituximab (an anti-CD20 monoclonal antibody) on ME/CFS patients:

    The recent study of Drs ystein Fluge and Olav Mella demonstrating significant improvement in ME/CFS patients treated with the B cell depleting agent Rituximab is a key study for our field.The investigators point the field in the direction of autoimmunity, and autoimmunity caused by an antibody.Many clinicians fail to realise the severity of the illness that has been termed ME/CFS.This is a profoundly ill population (http://bergento.no/the-mecfs-study-by-mella-and-fluge-is-a-key-study-for-our-field/).

    Equally, Professor Gordon Broderick from the University of Alberta (another co-author of the ICC) commented on the Norwegian study:

    the apparent success of this approach might not be all that surprising.Abnormal B cell activity has long been suspected as playing a key role in CFS. As early as 2006, Maes and colleaguespresented evidence of increased IgM antibodies directed specifically at cellular products of oxidative and nitrosative stress. That same year, our workalso produced evidence of sustained oxidative stress in circulating immune cells based on their gene expression.Once subjugated, B-lymphocytes also serve as a reservoir of sustained latent infection.Consistent with this, evidence of altered status of the B-lymphocytes of CFS patients was found in a study of gene expression by our group.Further workwith Drs Nancy Klimas and Mary Ann Fletcher of the University of Miami documented immune signalling patterns suggestive of an over-active Th2 or B-cell mediated immune response (http://www.research1st.com/2011/10/21/broderick/).

    Despite the existence of this 2006 evidence (and much more), the Wessely School psychiatrists persisted with their 5 million PACE study that was designed and intended to re-structure patients alleged aberrant illness beliefs that they were physically sick. Many people believe this to have been an abuse of the scientific process with dangerous consequences for countless sick people but, at no risk to themselves, the Wessely School are apparently accountable to no-one.

    That the UKs best-known medical journal, The Lancet, was willing to publish such deeply flawed psychosocial research leaves serious misrepresentation and statistical errors uncorrected; it also allowed the editor-in-chief, Richard Horton, to publicly dismiss and denigrate those who articulated the obvious errors, further illustrating the indifference and deep contempt which has characterised the response of the UK medical establishment to the disease, proving yet again that the profession of medicine in the UK no longer considers itself accountable to those it nominally serves.

    Link to follow.
     
  2. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
    *nods in agreement*

    "Professionals" can get away with about ANYTHING, because they run everything and we let them...and we've seen where that leads

    [video=youtube;t4SKL7f9n58]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4SKL7f9n58[/video]
     
  3. max

    max

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    For Jenny and Esther12

    The above (not the Pink Floyd vid, although that is very very good, the Margaret Williams part) is what I failed to get across yesterday - its all a scam and we've been played for 25 years. - apologies again for my lack of education and poor knowledge.

    "null field" - I got there in a round-about sort of way.
     
  4. max

    max

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    If PWME want rapid progress, the shrinks have to go - if there are any decent human shrinks, (personally I'm not convinced), but if there are, don't you think it is about time you spoke up to your colleagues and pointed out that despite 25 years of trying the same old argument of CBT/GET and seeing for themselves the results of self peer reviewed research being exposed as poorly fabricated and blatent misrepresentation of an illness, isn't it time there was a voice? It may even give the profession some credibility.

    Is it impossible for academics to contemplate the possibility they are wrong?

    Is it time for psychologists and psychiatrists to distance themselves from the Wessely school? It is going to look pretty bad for their chances of reaching that top step of objective science if they are associated with a "null field" doctrine label.
     
    justinreilly likes this.
  5. justinreilly

    justinreilly Senior Member

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    This is exactly why we shouldn't use our 'slave name' "CFS", it just helps Wessely every time we say it. Everyone, PLEASE use ME. It will get us out of this hellhole that much faster.
     
  6. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi justinreilly, this probably isnt the venue, and I agree we should be using ME as much as possible, but there are times we have to use CFS. In reference to past research and official diagnosis often all we have is CFS. This needs to be debated and a good solution found. For now when referencing I try to use the definition, not just CFS, such as Oxford CFS, Fukuda CFS, CCC CFS etc. For historical reasons its impossible to completely do away with the term CFS, although for political reasons the vast majority of times we talk about our illness can indeed be ME. Its more accurate, and reflects the pathophysiology better, and since CFS is a diagnosis of exclusion I would argue its entirely justifiable to use ME as an alternative term if you qualify. One issue is still unclear though - how do we label anyone who currently does not fit an ME diagnosis but who still has a CFS diagnosis? My best bet is that many of them will actually have ME, and until we have a reliable diagnostic test these people may fall through the cracks. I don't want anyone to fall through the cracks. This needs more debate.

    Doctors have been given special privileges. So have banking executives, but this goes beyond that to all highly paid business executives. They are minimally accountable. The systems that are in place as checks and balances do not work properly. There needs to be a complete rethink. For one thing I don't think we should ever pay executives ultra high wages - they should instead have a special class of non-saleable non-voting lifetime shares awarded as bonuses, so that they get the proceeds. If the company goes bust, so do their bonuses. On doctors we need independent medical scientists reviewing what happens, not doctors, as a balancing mechanism. Scientists have different but related training. Evidence-based medicine should be about scientific evidence, not medical group-think.

    One final thought: I would be entirely unsurprised if ME turned out to be two different illnesses - subgroups might still be important. ME is only a label, although much much better than a CFS label, we still need to understand causal mechanisms and have a causation based diagnostic test.

    Bye, Alex
     
  7. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Just a thought alex - (a la Byron Hyde) - not so much different illnesses but all on a single spectrum. One might speculate that the degree (severity etc of symptoms) could be related to the original "insult" and extent of damage sustained in each of the systems - neoro/endocrine/immune dysfunctions that follow.
     
  8. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Re dasiymay's post and Margaret Williams writings - I think now indisputable evidence is out (Fluge and Mella) this should be the nail in coffin for Wessely et al - they should learn to come clean, step out of ME, and admit their collective errors in this disease (along the lines of the Norwegian Health Auth apologies for mistreatment). Or would this give them a severe case of cognative dissonance.
     
  9. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Alex
    I have long thought that people should be paid based on REAL values, not because they shine their arse on a modern-day throne! ;)

    Being in charge is stressful and needs effort, but it's just a FORM of "work", without the rest of the workers the "bosses" are useless, and anyone who wants power damn sure shouldn't ever get it (with a few exceptions, in general anyone who wants power is a selfish, dangerous, corruptable menace)
    iirc think it was Aristotle?? who pointed out that earning more than about 4 times what others got, put folks' backs up and thus causes problems

    In an "Ideal" world, the minimum wage would be a true living wage, about 2 or 3 times what it is now, so no more abusing illegal immigrants/poor, and giving everyone ability to have a stable, low stress life with chance for education etc.
    those doing the most dangerous, humiliating, dirty or actually essential jobs would get x4 basic wage. Front line soldiers, firebrigade, quarry workers and a few others in really dangerous jobs, and farmers for without farms we *all die*
    the guy who goes into the sewers ot unblock them after floods is more vital than an exec, because bad sewers = epidemics and that's a very risky job.

    perosn who cleans your toilets in the office deserves a lot, why? ok YOU go clean the toilets, hm! ;)

    Doctors/nurses are in a risky, highly skilled job (very high risk of infection, nruses have high risk also of injury) so x3 wage or x4 in certain circumstances

    and so on. With all education paid for via taxes (free), because educated society = less troubled, less violent and greatly more economically viable because neo-wage-slaves aren't worth jacksquat in the long run, as increasing automation will render many folk out of a job anyway and the ROmans proved slavery is no use economically (and automation has already been chewing into jobs, fewer and fewer solid reliable jobs at lower end of the scale. New advances, as I told folk about years ago, in 3D pritning etc will finish that off)

    Instead of crippling your society into the mess US has with 1 million+ in jail, many of those folk could have had settled lives, and been those and many others if they'd had better lives chance at higher education, could have been researchers, small business entrepreneurs and so on who'd have greatly boosted their nation. Poverty, squalor, lack of educaitonal chances *does* wreck lives, grealty icnreases risk folk end up in jail or dead etc. For what? So some ratbag can have TWO extra mansions?!
    US/Uk are increasingly wasting their greatest resource of all: their people :/
     
  10. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi Enid, I used to think this and I still consider it possible, but the biochemistry is coming up one way or another. Now this might be just different symptoms manifesting in the same underlying order, which makes it a spectrum of sorts. Or it may be two different illnesses with similar symptoms. As usual we need more research. The Lights for example find patients with adrenergic issues or cytokine storms post exercise. This is not the same form of post exertional neuroimmune exhaustion. We need to know more, and in particular find out if the potential subgrouping markers cluster in the same patients. If multiple markers cluster together but are different between two groups, its probably two diseases. On the other hand this disease morphs - maybe one patient can be in multiple subgroups at different stages of illness.

    Bye, Alex

    PS In reply to SilverbladeTE, Australia is trying to introduce a special mining tax where profits over fifty million get extra tax, after allowing for investment offsets - but they also get to write off royalties, no double dipping. Mining is one-off income, and distorts the economy especially in a boom. The money is going into infrastructure, lower corporate tax rates, and superannunation. This money, as part of infrastructure spending, will go to better roads and other things in mining towns which have serious problems from rampant mining booms here. Thus we get long term improvement in rail, road and ports. This in turn makes it easier for mining companies to operate, but that is true of other businesses as well.

    Personally I think that we should have something similar for really large salaries, or at least another tier to the tax threshold, one set very high.

    The reason I am in favour of non-transferable lifetime non-voting shares is that their value is dependent on long term success for the company. The ability to make a fortune, destroy the company with bad risks and decisions, and bail out on a golden parachute will be gone. Long term thinking is much better for the country, and the company, even if it does not make as much money in the short term.

    The reason that execs get pait premium salaries is run-away competition. Companies want to make more money. Some people have a better track record of doing that. Many companies want to hire them, they are in demand. How much you have to pay them keeps rising. If you don't do that you get someone less capable. Then you make less money. This makes investors unhappy. However, its a variant of an economic bubble. Its focus is short-term profits, not long term success. It encourages risk taking. One thing that we really need is an end to governments bailing out bad companies. Maybe if enough go broke it will stop the risk taking and end the emphasis on short-term profits.

    Personally I think Europe is in big big trouble, not because of the union itself, but because of a single currency (except for those countries who opted out of the Euro). Few would like my solution to the Euro crisis - reintroduce national currencies in countries that are economically unstable. That way they have the ability to decrease the value of their currency to cope with the kinds of economic emergencies we see. The really rich countries would particularly not like this, as the Euro value is decreased by these poorer countries, and a reduced currency value makes their manufacturing very profitable. To put it another way, the big manufacturing economies in Europe make money because their neighbours don't.
     
  11. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Quite agree alex on the possibilities and longing to know "the" answer I've monitored my own progress through 12 years. I feel a different stages problem for researchers - there is nothing for instance members here on PR that I have not experienced. Nothing much doing in the UK for the actual measuring but the effects spoken of are very familiar and often overlapping for me. If I recall correctly Byron Hyde does make a distinction between ME and CFS but sees it on a spectrum ..... as you say more research needed.....I'll just have to be more patient ! Catch the so and so that "did" it would be like Christmas everyday. But there again many viruses I see attack the nervous system ......
     
  12. max

    max

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    Actually, the anti-capitalist movement label has been attached to the wrong group - mmm where have I seen the wrong label on the wrong group?

    Anyway, the 'anti-capitalist' label should be attached to the banks and the corporations - they do not like capitalism because capitalism depends on a free market (no monopoly) - the west practices some weird form of capitalism that is based in its very own "null field" research - our beloved system is based upon using fractional reserve banking with fiat currencies that can only lose value with time due to their design (ie printed at interest) - added to that, the parts that have done the damage is a combination of high frequency trading and deregulation - with $trillions in CDS's just waiting to enter the storm, the EU about to disintegrate, markets 'trading' in very low volumes, banks that are techically insolvent, leveraging going through the roof again, governments of all nations manipulating economic results and forecasts, the system is broke. At the moment, the global economy is gasping for breath because all of the oxygen is being devoured by money printing on a scale never seen before.

    A 2-tier EU is possible but it is a tempory fix and will fail - If Brits think they have an immigration problem now then they are in for a shock if Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, and even the French suddenly find themselves with very little wealth. It would be mayhem - the IMF, ECB, US fed and of course the BoE will print to keep it together.

    People might even get to learn the true meaning of a bank holiday - most think its a time in summer, or spring or xmas - there is another reason for a bank holiday - its that time when the banks shut their doors, a few days later they reopen for business but your currency (fiat) suddenly loses 60-80% of its value alongside a chorus of we're all in it together whilst the weathy pick up bargain deals from desparate people.

    Its a race to the bottom for the $,, and , thing is, no one wants to 'go' first - interesting times.


    It is what happens when academics are left in charge - null field research is rife - in order to gain their qualifications and go on to a long profitable life (at the expense of those less fortunate) - they do not have the time to question the basics of their subject - they take it in 'faith' that the fundementals of their education is based in well researched, independently reviewed facts.


    Oops, I'm not an economist either. I can't talk about this - although it is on subject as its talking about unaccountable professions and of course "null field" garbage junk science aka Wessely school tosh psychology and psychiatry.
     
  13. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi max, the bad news is that this immigration issue is already the case and is only going to get worse. The nature of open borders may well need to change, but there is a huge problem with enforcement. In the coming century however the place for people to move to is likely to be come Asia and Brazil. The western world is nearing limits to growth, the former third world rising powers will become magnets. Just a prediction. While I don't doubt China, for example, can deal with a few hundred thousand illegal immigrants, I wonder if they can handle twenty million a year? Watch the world population move this century, whether we like it or not - its a dire prediction, and one I hope wont eventuate, but it looks like it will be the trend.

    The only solution is to solve economic and security issues around the world. We have not had much success, I don't think it will happen quickly. What is happening economically in Asia and Brazil are pointers for what can happen everywhere - people need to take notes. The Western ideal of growth, growth, growth will hve to be tempered, though there are ways to continue to grow in the west even though there will be strong negative forces - I have been thinking about that but it requires a lot more thought.

    The problem with the Euro, as I see it, is you have one currency with how many different economies and economic policies? The EEC has to either be run as one economy, or have separate currencies. Entitlements such as state benefits will have to be limited to citizens to slow population migration. In other words, we either have a defacto breakdown of the Euro or a real one. The current situation is that those making money off the current situation are trying to use cash as a temporary fix. The austerity measures that will result wil linduce the very migration that is in discussion. Its a deep deep mess. It would have been far better in my view, though unpredictable in nature, to have allowed Greece to default and to have taken the view that Greece had a failed government. Then on the other hand, most governments in the western world are also failing due to similar issues. The USA is close to failing this way I think - but its still probably a decade or two away unless they can turn it around - there is still time. Maybe they will learn the lesson, but there is certainly powerful resistance to changes in financial practicies.

    Australia got lucky. Our banking sector is much more heavily regulated so it didnt suffer the same issues. We are also in a mining boom due to Asian growth. Our government wants to take credit for getting through the crisis with only slowed growth, whereas our opposition party wants to blame the government for going into debt to get by. The real brenefits for us I think is due to decades of changes to banking regulation - and all political parties were part of that. Of course the previous coalition government can take credit, where credit is due, for having successive budget surpluses.

    Bye,
    Alex
     
  14. max

    max

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    The Chinese - again, in the short term looking better than the EU and US.

    Without the rest of the world as a market place, the Asian market will go the same way - ie, bust.

    Austerity will not work, firstly because it is not the answer to the problem - and secondly, even if it could address the issues, the people will only take so much. The middle class are the tipping point - when they begin to 'hurt', and I don't mean just giving up 1 of their vacations per year, I mean not being able to feed their kids, after allowing blame to fall on the shoulders of those on state benefits and calling them all scroungers they will realise they are 'next in line' - that is when it will get interesting.

    In the UK, we had a polical coup - some people call it a coalition - MP's told us we voted for it so we gave our consent. Belgium, as far as I know, (not checked), still don't have a government - they've not had a government for about 2 years - the Germans are printing deutchmarks, the french are trying unsuccessfully to disguise the debt they hold far surpasses the amount they hold in assets, the Italians have Berlusconi, need I say more, and as I watch the asian markets this morning, they 'like' the news out of Greece because there will be no referendum - give it a couple of days and that optomism will fade - its all based on null field research - it is destined to fail. Don't matter where in the world you live!

    Null field = eventual, inevitable fail.


    Are you 'stacking'?
     
  15. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi max, just to be clear when I said Australa got lucky it was dripping with sarcasm - we came through OK largely by things that had nothing to do with our goverment. I am not entirely pessimistic though. There are always solutions - its up to people to find them and embrace them. I can say much more, but its going to sound like doom and gloom and it doesn't need to be. The world either learns from this, fixes the issues, or faces it again in some years, and next time it is lkely to be worse than this time. Bye, Alex
     
  16. max

    max

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    thanks for the chat Alex. :thumbsup:
     
  17. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Yeah, small business= good business, what we've got instead is a mosntrosity strangling the "normal" businesses :/
    some of my folks have seen that in the USA, big corproations have so much leverage or worse, that they can grab contracts from one enterprise, and illegal immigrants have ruined other folks business because they vastly undercut their wages (hey the immigrants are just folk desperate to live, can't blame 'em, but my folks emigrated legally long time ago and have seen their construction business get chewed up...they were the workers, family firm. Good honest citizens, why should they suffer because Big Business wants slave labour?)
     
  18. Battery Muncher

    Battery Muncher Senior Member

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    The annoying thing is that illegal immigration is so useful to BB - not just as slave labour, but as a way to deflect attention from the root cause of the problem.

    So while they stir up hatred and discontent at the immigrants, no-one notices things like this:

    "From '08-'10 @GeneralElectric made $10.4 billion in profits, $4.7B! from tax refunds, had a tax rate of -45.3%. "

    In 2009 @ExxonMobil made $2.4 billion in profits, $954 from tax refunds and had a tax rate of -38.3%.

    In '09 & '10 Verizon made $24 billion in US income, $1.3 billion frm tax rebates & had a tax rate of -5.4%


    (http://twitter.com/#!/search?q=#TaxDodger)



    Not to mention the horrible working conditions that these companies maintain abroad - e.g. Foxconn factories in China. The staff are worked so hard, doing such repetitive tasks, that they constantly twitch in their sleep.

    The problem is, as you say, the amount of power and leverage these corporations have.....
     
  19. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Yeah it's the old "Divide and Conquer" routine, while poor folk are encouraged by the "yellow press" to squabble over things, like they did in late 1800s as example (Chinese/Irish were the neo-slaves/scapegoats then)
    the rich get richer and laugh at the weak, as the poor folk fight each other rather than drag the rich tossers to the guillotines :p
    now they're using the disabled/welfare claimants as scapegoats

    Oh yeah the tax evasion is at the heart of our nation's woes (US/UK), see Greece, rich pay almsot no tax at all, so of course, Public coffers are empty
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/.../Greece-loses-15bn-a-year-to-tax-evasion.html

    here in UK's I recall back in 1980s, one of richest guys here paid only 50 PENCE a year in tax...
    Scum attack the disabled/welfare, real figure for such fraud is 250 million government lied and added the 750million lost from screw ups to the fraud total!
    Meanwhile, offical taxevasion figure is 25 billion, real figure is actually between 50 and 170 billion!

    they are *traitors* in the literal sense of the word (especially corporations, who are really "Hostile Foreign Entities"), because they've betrayed their nations to the point of destruction, selling nuclear secrets to say, Iran/China wouldn't even begin to compare to the actual damage these ratbags have done :(
     
  20. max

    max

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    ...... Looking on the bright side,.....when it all goes belly up, when people realise their cash is worthless paper, there are no banks, there's no jobs, no pensions, no food, plenty armed police on the streets, curfews, endless war (already got that one sorted), and the government on the TV 24/7 (oops that ones sorted too), no internet (unless its FB), at least then we can all laugh about it.


    :D Go quickly Norway, faster pleeeeeeeeeeeeeze.:D
     

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