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Do you think appropriate vaccines could prevent ME/CFS/SEID

redaxe

Senior Member
Messages
230
I believe I fit into the 'hit and run' theory of M.E, so I don't think an antigen specific vaccine would do me any good for my particular case.

What do you all think? I had a sudden viral onset but I don't think I was ever tested for viruses at that time.

The only people that can really answer that question are CFS/ME specialists that have a focus in immunology/infectious diseases like Dr Montoya, Dr Peterson and Dr Lerner. If you see one of them they will go through your history and then run a battery of tests on you to try and find something. If you have CFS/ME and you've lost most of the quality of your life the only thing I could say is what have you got to lose? It's worth a shot even if there is a chance they don't find anything or the treatment doesn't work.

Diagnosing persistent viral infections for us is tricky and you have to know what your looking for. A mainstream infectious disease specialist probably won't know what what tests to run and how to interpret that specifically for our illness.
But from what you've said there is no obvious reason why you couldn't have a persistent infection and benefit from antivirals. But the only way to find out is to see one of those doctors.

The persistent viral theory is that our cells are harboring an abortive form of the virus that attempts to build new copies of itself but that process is aborted before completion and only early viral fragments and proteins are produced.

Your bodies reaciton to those viral proteins is what is causing the inflammation and cognitive problems. Your immune system is not reacting normally to this so you're unlikely to get a fever or have a typical response when catch a cold - hence that is why outside of immunological testing it is too difficult to conclude if you have a persistent low grade infection or not.

There is a good article here about the Antiviral approach
http://phoenixrising.me/interviews-...ntiviral-treatment-study-0510-by-cort-johnson
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,871
I wont hold my breath on companies getting rid of toxic fillers. Why are they in there in the first place? Can you provide that information, because I have yet to know a reason why they are in there.

@sscobalt93, how can you be so opinionated about vaccines, yet display such ignorance of their scientific and technical details. That seems almost rude. If you don't even know these basic details, how can you be so dogmatic?
 

sscobalt93

Senior Member
Messages
125
@Hip it's rude because I have an opinion on the subject that differ's from yours? Regardless of the scientific data? Man, what a world we live in.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,871
@Hip it's rude because I have an opinion on the subject that differ's from yours? Regardless of the scientific data? Man, what a world we live in.

Differences of opinion are welcome. However, I'd like to know how someone can be so sure of their opinions on vaccines and their ingredients, yet be completely unaware of the purpose of the ingredients within the vaccine. If the foundations of your argument are built on this lack of knowledge, then the conclusions of the argument are not going to be very sound.
 

sscobalt93

Senior Member
Messages
125
I'm not ignorant on what the fillers do to the body. Have you ever even read the packing insert to a vaccine? If so then you should agree these fillers are harmful and should not be added to the ingredients
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,871
I'm not ignorant on what the fillers do to the body.

Well if you are not ignorant of the function of these vaccine ingredients, perhaps you would like to explain in your own words why aluminum and mercury are included in a vaccine. Each ingredient is there for a specific purpose. I want to see if you actually know what that purpose is, and can explain it.

So far you have not said anything that indicates you even know the very basics of how these ingredients function.

And by the way they are not generally called "fillers"; they don't fill anything; they are called ingredients.
 

sscobalt93

Senior Member
Messages
125
@Hip you're making this sound like I am stupid. Stop that. Just because there are no studies to show that it has caused issues I can still believe that it's not good for us. And Mercury doesn't just go in and out without being absorbed. Regardless of the type of mercury. If that was the case why are people who do not have mercury fillings having mercury poisoning. Andrew Cutler is a knowledgeable man, just read his book. Also when we have genetic mutations that hinder our bodies detox process we cannot safely eliminate these toxic fillers. We also aren't just reciving one vaccine. We get multiple ones. Right from birth. Then we are to get booster every couple of years.

How are you certain that everyone in the government vaccinates their children? I don't see anything that ALL of them vaccinate their children. How can we trust what the government has to say when they purposfully put flouride in our water? I mean it has been classified as carcinogenic and a neurotoxin. Why is that in our water system? It has no benefit. Yes flouride is a part of nature, but the amounts we are subjected to consume on a daily basis if we drank tap water is far more than what we would get in nature. It has no purpose.
 

sscobalt93

Senior Member
Messages
125
Vaccination and autoimmunity-'vaccinosis': a dangerous liaison?

"The question of a connection between vaccination and autoimmune illness (or phenomena) is surrounded by controversy. A heated debate is going on regarding the causality between vaccines, such as measles and anti-hepatitis B virus (HBV), and multiple sclerosis (MS). Brain antibodies as well as clinical symptoms have been found in patients vaccinated against those diseases. Other autoimmune illnesses have been associated with vaccinations. Tetanus toxoid, influenza vaccines, polio vaccine, and others, have been related to phenomena ranging from autoantibodies production to full-blown illness (such as rheumatoid arthritis (RA)). Conflicting data exists regarding also the connection between autism and vaccination with measles vaccine. So far only one controlled study of an experimental animal model has been published, in which the possible causal relation between vaccines and autoimmune findings has been examined: in healthy puppies immunized with a variety of commonly given vaccines, a variety of autoantibodies have been documented but no frank autoimmune illness was recorded. The findings could also represent a polyclonal activation (adjuvant reaction). The mechanism (or mechanisms) of autoimmune reactions following immunization has not yet been elucidated. One of the possibilities is molecular mimicry; when a structural similarity exists between some viral antigen (or other component of the vaccine) and a self-antigen. This similarity may be the trigger to the autoimmune reaction. Other possible mechanisms are discussed. Even though the data regarding the relation between vaccination and autoimmune disease is conflicting, it seems that some autoimmune phenomena are clearly related to immunization (e.g. Guillain-Barre syndrome). The issue of the risk of vaccination remains a philosophical one, since to date the advantages of this policy have not been refuted, while the risk for autoimmune disease has not been irrevocably proved. We discuss the pros and cons of this issue (although the temporal relationship (i.e. always 2-3 months following immunization) is impressive)."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10648110

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1069029/

Methyl mercury can cross the BBB where it can lose its methyl group and turn inorganic.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2376879/
 

sscobalt93

Senior Member
Messages
125
now this is my last post. I need to focus my energy on healing. Not trying to prove people wrong.
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
If that was the case why are people who do not have mercury fillings having mercury poisoning
This has not been proven.
I can still believe that it's not good for us.
Nothing wrong with beliefs but beliefs are not facts.which may be right, wrong or somewhere in between.
How are you certain that everyone in the government vaccinates their children? I don't see anything that ALL of them vaccinate their children
You can’t prove a negative, however the fact remains that the majority of the population do vaccinate.
exists regarding also the connection between autism and vaccination with measles vaccine. So far only one controlled study of an experimental animal model has been published, in which the possible causal relation between vaccines an
Not true at all. There are manty studies showing there is no connection between autism and the MMR.
The issue of the risk of vaccination remains a philosophical one, since to date the advantages of this policy have not been refuted, while the risk for autoimmune disease has not been irrevocably proved
No. The numbers are known and they contradict what you are saying. There are many resources available, some on this thread that show the benefits far outweigh the risks. This is true with any medical procedure. The risks need to be compared to the benefits.
How can we trust what the government has to say when they purposfully put flouride in our water
This is a strawman fallacy Plus there is overwhelming evidence that flouridation is safe and has many advantages.

Barb
 

Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
now this is my last post. I need to focus my energy on healing. Not trying to prove people wrong.

Fair enough but I really don't see that any arguments you have presented here regarding 'toxins' in vaccines are correct.

Let's go back to the formaldehyde which you have labelled as an unnecessary 'toxin' in vaccines.

Please take the time to point out to me what is 'wrong' with the following statements.

Formaldehyde is used in the process of making some vaccines. Vaccines need to be purified of extra viruses and bacteria or else they truly would be dangerous. After the contaminants have been killed by the formaldehyde, 99.9% of it is removed during the final steps of producing the vaccine.

We make formaldehyde in our body. A child has a blood volume of 5-9 mg of formaldehyde from natural processes in their blood at any given time. It would take about 10 -20 million doses of vaccines to cause a very slight increase of formaldehyde in the body.

As I said before, formaldehyde is found in many foods -- fruits, nuts for example. Do you eat the food that contains this dangerous 'toxin'.?

Also, formaldehyde has a half-life of about 1 minute, so it can't even accumulate in the body.

I am sure it could be argued that formaldehyde is a nasty toxin. And yes, it absolutely is in high concentrations. I remember doing a dissection of a rats brain that had been soaked in formaldehyde. It was nasty evil, eye burning smelly stuff. You can't say that a substance is dangerous at all concentrations which is what you seem to be saying. Because the minute amount of formaldehyde in vaccines is not the same as being exposed to much much higher concentrations.

Do people who believe formaldehyde is a toxin in vaccines eat apples and pears. If they do they have lost their argument. Same goes for Aluminum -- it's everywhere -- in food, in the air, in the water in much greater doses than vaccines, yet it's apparently 'toxic' in vaccines, but we are not poisoned by it via the air, water, food. I wish these people who believe that the 'toxins' in vaccines are harmful would learn some basic chemistry and actually read some scientific research.

And as for all the comments about the dangers of mercury. Thimerosal is not mercury in it's elemental form and really it's all a moot point now because it is only used in multi-dose flu vaccines.

Just like formaldehyde, thimerosal is a toxic compound at a certain concentration. The half-life of thimerosal is about 2.2 days. It is cleared out by the kidneys, it does not accumulate.

To reach a toxic dose of thimerosal in a child, you would have to inject them about 4 million times a day to make it even potentially toxic.

Big Pharma must love the people that had the thimerosal removed from most vaccines. Other than the flu vaccine, every single vaccine has to be in a single-use pre-filled syringe which has actually caused the cost of vaccines to rise and given them lots more profit. That could lead to some interesting conjecture about who really is in the pocket of Big Pharma (just joking).

Just because there are no studies to show that it has caused issues I can still believe that it's not good for us. And Mercury doesn't just go in and out without being absorbed. Regardless of the type of mercury. If that was the case why are people who do not have mercury fillings having mercury poisoning. Andrew Cutler is a knowledgeable man, just read his book. Also when we have genetic mutations that hinder our bodies detox process we cannot safely eliminate these toxic fillers. We also aren't just reciving one vaccine. We get multiple ones. Right from birth. Then we are to get booster every couple of years

Elemental mercury has nothing to do with vaccines. As I already said, the half-life of thimerosal is about 2.2 days. It is cleared out by the kidneys, it does not accumulate. There is no mercury in childhood vaccinations -- so they are not getting repeated doses of any form of mercury.

How can we trust what the government has to say when they purposfully put flouride in our water? I mean it has been classified as carcinogenic and a neurotoxin. Why is that in our water system? It has no benefit. Yes flouride is a part of nature, but the amounts we are subjected to consume on a daily basis if we drank tap water is far more than what we would get in nature. It has no purpose.

Again you are confusing high doses of something as compared to .7 - 1.0 parts per million. It has a purpose. I guess we should ask the government to stop purposefully trying to keep us from getting sick by purifying all the bacteria and parasites out of our water. How nasty of them to keep us all so confused by purposefully poisoning us and at the same time stopping us from getting nasty bacterial and parasitical infections.
Did you know that the government actually removes fluoride from the water in some communities because the concentrations of it are far above what they consider safe. There is always an envelope with all substance re: what is safe and what is not. The problem some make it an either/or issue.

I have problems with people with compromised immune systems getting vaccinations but it has nothing to do with things like formaldehyde or aluminum.

I have probably just wasted a few hours on this because I doubt you will change your mind about these things. Really, a little more research on these things might be helpful for you and a little knowledge of toxicology.
 

Ian

Senior Member
Messages
283
Same goes for Aluminum -- it's everywhere -- in food, in the air, in the water in much greater doses than vaccines, yet it's apparently 'toxic' in vaccines,

Aluminum is profoundly toxic. It has no known biological role in the body. Saying it's 'everywhere' including food is true, but you don't absorb it through your GI tract. If it is injected you get 100% absorption. Aluminum causes something like an immune system bonfire in the body. From what I recall white blood cells consume it, until eventually it kills them, and they release all their contents into the blood stream, and the process repeats. It also has a very long half life in the body. But these adjuvants are 'needed' because the shot has to be toxic enough otherwise your body really mounts no immune defense, and you basically get no benefit at all. There are plenty of studies linking it to neurological problems in people. Just type it into google and you will be flooded with results. ie

>Chronic exposure of animals to aluminium is associated with behavioural, neuropathological and neurochemical changes. Among them, deficits of learning and behavioural functions are most evident.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19568732

Sounds a bit too familiar .......

How much aluminum exactly is safe to inject into a baby? No one knows.

Big Pharma must love the people that had the thimerosal removed from most vaccines.
It is true they removed it from pediatric vaccines. But they did a bate and switch. At exactly the same time as removing it, the CDC added the flu shot to the recommended schedule for kids. It contains 25 micrograms per dose. But that's not the only vaccine it is in. A vaccine can also be listed as being preservative free, but can still contain trace amounts of mercury. The reason is because they use it during manufacture for sterilization. Children today receive about half of what they did during the peak years, but that's still a lot of mercury. Hardly gone as the general public have been lead to believe. But hey, you can tell the general public anything.

To reach a toxic dose of thimerosal in a child, you would have to inject them about 4 million times a day to make it even potentially toxic.

I don't even know how to respond to that. Given there are no safety guidelines for ethylmercury, because it's never been directly tested on people, unless you count the experiment done in the 1920's by Illy Lilly, in which they gave 22 meningitis patents 1% IV solution and they all died within 24 hours. If you use the equivalent standards of methyl mercury, even given the CDC's own numbers, you can totally violate the maximum allowable amount if you give a flu shot to a baby.

But don't listen to my ramblings, this guy was one of the worlds leading experts in thiomersal. He was involved in a lot of research done in the early years.

 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,871
But these adjuvants are 'needed' because the shot has to be toxic enough otherwise your body really mounts no immune defense, and you basically get no benefit at all.

The reason adjuvants are needed is not related to their toxicity or otherwise; adjuvants are immune stimulants, which are placed in the vaccine to ensure the immune system properly responds to the microbes in the vaccine. If you did not have an adjuvant, the immune system may not properly respond to the small amount of microbe within the vaccine, and then you would not develop protective antibodies against that microbe.

When there are adverse effects to vaccines, it has been speculated by Dr Yehuda Shoenfeld that this immune stimulant effect of the adjuvant may be responsible, rather that any toxic effects.

I like Dr Shoenfeld's ideas, and personally I think the assumed toxic effects of ethylmercury in vaccines are likely a red herring, and that the main cause of vaccine-induced diseases likely comes from the adjuvant's effect on the immune system. Possibly because aluminum can stick around in the body, it may cause a chronic immune stimulation, but I am just speculating here.

Note that Dr Shoenfeld points out that adjuvants are quite common in nature: the adjuvant mineral oil can be found in canned foods.

Silicone is also an adjuvant, and this may be why leaking silicone breast implants can produce ill health and an ME/CFS-like condition.
 
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Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
Aluminum is profoundly toxic.

Yes, IV aluminum can have toxic effects in humans at levels given in dialysis. The amount in vaccines isn't even close to that and dialysis is given often, not vaccines. Just to note re: IV administration like in vaccines -- if a significant aluminum load exceeds the body's excretory capacity, the excess is deposited in various tissues, including bone, brain, liver, heart, spleen, and muscle. This accumulation causes morbidity and mortality through various mechanisms. This is what could happen with a constant infusion as in dialysis, this is NOT what happens with the administration of vaccines because the level doesn't even come close to exceeding the body's excretory capacity. Let's look at the toxicity of different things. The oral LD50 of aluminium nitrate, chloride, and sulfate in mice and rats ranges from 200 to 1000 mg of aluminium per kg of body weight.

toxicity-table4.png

But don't listen to my ramblings, this guy was one of the worlds leading experts in thiomersal. He was involved in a lot of research done in the early years.

I am sorry but I am unable to find any published scientific research done by Engley related to thimerosal so I don't know how it's possible to call him one of the "worlds leading experts in thiomersal". He seems to have published his last paper over 2o years ago and not related to thimerosal. It seems the video you have posted is just opinion. I prefer to look at research as there seems to be an over abundance of opinion re: vaccines which is both damaging and misleading. I think it would be prudent to look at actual research before deciding and relying on the opinions of somebody who hasn't actually produced any research on thimerosal in vaccines.

Just a few articles/studies to consider.

Study Reports Aluminum in Vaccines Poses Extremely Low Risk to Infants

Toxic myths about vaccines

Recent Scientific Studies on Thimerosal and Autism
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,871
If you use the equivalent standards of methyl mercury, even given the CDC's own numbers, you can totally violate the maximum allowable amount if you give a flu shot to a baby.

In a vaccine, you get around 10 to 25 mcg of ethylmercury. In a can of tuna, you get around 40 mcg of the methylmercury — and methylmercury is very well absorbed in the gut (95% is absorbed).

However, I don't see people worrying about young children eating tuna fish.
 

IreneF

Senior Member
Messages
1,552
Location
San Francisco

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,871
The Environmental Protection Agency advises pregnant women and young children to limit certain fish:
http://water.epa.gov/scitech/swguidance/fishshellfish/outreach/advice_index.cfm

I appreciate that, but in general the public has displayed little concern about the issue of mercury in fish, whereas certain sections of the public have shown considerable concern about mercury in vaccines, yet on the face of it, the danger from fish is probably greater if you are eating tuna say once a week.
 

IreneF

Senior Member
Messages
1,552
Location
San Francisco
I appreciate that, but in general the public has displayed little concern about the issue of mercury in fish, whereas certain sections of the public have shown considerable concern about mercury in vaccines, yet on the face of it, the danger from fish is probably greater if you are eating tuna say once a week.
More on environmental mercury:
http://www.usgs.gov/themes/factsheet/146-00/#sources
Much more dangerous than anything in a vaccine.