Do you think appropriate vaccines could prevent ME/CFS/SEID

[geraldt52]

The situations with vaccines is something like this...

I removed most of your post, Ian, to save space, but I think you've hit on everything I see as problematic with vaccines...that was a very thoughtful and reasoned post and I always struggle with how people cannot acknowledge that the disagreement with the latest vaccine schedules is not unreasonable.

 

[barbc56]

a strep throat and other minor viruses

Strep throat is not a minor virus.

It's important to identify strep throat for a number of reasons. If untreated, strep throat can sometimes cause complications such as kidney inflammation and rheumatic fever. Rheumatic fever can lead to painful and inflamed joints, a rash and even damage to heart valves

.
If these natural antibiotics have medicinal properties, then the same side effects may occur. Natural does not mean something is free of sideeffects.

Many medications are made from herbs but the part of the herb, tree bark, whatever that's therapeutic is extracted. This means if you substitute a supplement for medication, not only does that make the dosage tricky but also the fact, at least in the US, that they are not regulated means you're not even sure you are getting what is on the label.

Vitamin C has it's risks. It may have a protective effect but with diseases like cancer it can also protect the cancer cells. Most oncologists do not recommend patients take vitamin C.

I have an open mind but most of the arguments from the antivaxxers are not based in science or just have enough science to make them seem credible. Everyone has a right to their opinion but you can't call what many antivaxxers are saying is science.

Here's a good resource.

http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vaccination-myths-busted-by-science-cheat-sheet-on-immunisation/

I don't like government mandates but in the case of vaccinations, I feel there is enough medical science showing vaccinations are safe enough to warrent prohibiting children who are not vaccinated from being in school. For the greater good and for those who can't be vaccinated.

No, I will not debate mandated vaccines. I am just stating my opinion.

There are risks and benifits for any medical procedure. For vaccines, the benifits far outweigh the risk.

What happened in California was preventable.

Babies have died from whooping cough because of people not getting vaccinated. Several where I live.

This following should never have happened. This child was in the hospital for 28 days before he died.

The six year old boy in Olot (Catalonia) who became ill with diphtheria died overnight at the Vall d’Hebron hospital in Barcelona, a spokeswoman for the Catalan regional health

The boy’s parents felt “terribly guilty” and that they had been “tricked” by anti-vaccine groups who convinced them not to vaccinate their son, the public health secretary in Catalonia said during a press conference on June 5

During a screening process following the boy’s infection, health authorities in Catalonia discovered eight more children were carrying diphtheria bacteria, but had not developed the disease because they had been vaccinated

.
.https://www.thespainreport.com/16953/six-year-old-boy-with-diphtheria-in-catalonia-dies/

I think I better stop. This is a very personal topic for me, so I might have been a bit lengthy.

Barb

ETA At this point, I'm not sure if I'm even on topic as the thread has taken so many turns.

I lost the URL for the first quote but will try and find it.

 

[sscobalt93]

This is the last time I will say this: Natural substances are not tested like pharmaceutical drugs are. Therefore there is no evidence to base it off one another. However most of these natural antibiotics were used for hundreds of years before any pharmaceutical drugs to help treat people, and even cure what has infected them. I just don't understand why you wouldn't even consider a natural option. People are curing their Lyme with natural treatments without any conventional abx. That means a lot. People are curing cancer without chemo or other drugs. What does that mean to you? To me that means the power of nature should be implemented. I am not saying that it's the only choice, but trying something natural before hitting yourself with pharmaceuticals is a good approach. That's just me though. I know some other's agree with me as well.

I mean lets look at H pylori and how hard it is to eradicate, but people are curing if very effectively with Matula Tea or Mastic gum. Natural options should be more known. They aren't because there is no money in it. There aren't reps trying to sell garlic prescriptions to doctors because you can't patent nature.


There that is my last response to this thread. This thread should just be closed to avoid violation of the rules(not saying I would do that, it's just getting pretty personal as @barbc56 has stated.)

 

[Sushi]

This thread should just be closed to avoid violation of the rules

We don't close threads "preemptively." Rather we expect members to respect each other when posting, to avoid problems arising in threads.

 

[Valentijn]

I mean lets look at H pylori and how hard it is to eradicate, but people are curing if very effectively with Matula Tea or Mastic gum.

Except you don't know that these people 1) have h. pylori, or 2) are cured of it. It's a blind guess based on subjective reports from anonymous sources.

If someone does want to prove those treatments work, surely they can fund h. pylori mainstream testing and the natural treatments for a small group of patients. It doesn't require a medical degree, nor does it require much money. Trials of treatments usually do start very small, with just a few people or even a single case. But the important thing is that the data must be published so that others can access and critique it.

So far it's a lot of claims with no substance. And in the case of Vitamin C, that lack of substance remains despite a lot of research.

 

[redaxe]

yeah we are going in circles but that seems to be the way of a lot of topics (our imaginations and logic often outstretches the information available)

I do think the subject of a metabolic Vitamin C deficiency in higher primates and humans is interesting though. (I'm going off topic again I know)
Yes we can't manufacture our own Vitamin C from precursors so it must be sourced entirely from diet.
So long as you eat several servings of fruit a week the official science says you're fine but this does raise an interesting point which others here alluded to - in that does the requirement of Vitamin C change over our lifetimes and become greater during times of acute stress or illness, i.e. can vitamin c be critically depleted during a major viral infection, post-surgery, trauma, chemo etc....

People have mentioned cases where high dose IV Vit C supposedly brought people back out of coma. Maybe for some people in acute encephalitis their Vitamin C levels drop dangerously low and without having that metabolic system to produce Vit C as needed this could be the issue. But that said apparently humans are very good at recycling Vitamin C so our bodies have compensated pretty damn well for losing the means to produce it... After it took quite some time for sailors to start exhibiting signs of scurvy on long ocean voyages...
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-03/cp-hhm031408.php

But even if we are good at recycling Vitamin C the question still stands - can levels be too low for the body to function properly even within the recommended dietary intake during a stressful event on the body.
I suppose we see this with Vitamin B12.... Many of us have had Vitamin B12 'within the acceptance range' but still found remarkable improvement from taking high dose injections so there maybe some truth in what the Vitamin C proponents are talking about.


Interesting that link mention goats make Vit C at 200 mg/kg each day so a goat weighing 60kg makes 12g per day! But on the flip side they can't recycle it or use it as efficiently as humans can.

 

[Undisclosed]

Why would you need aluminum in a vaccine? Or mercury? Or formaldehyde?

I wont hold my breath on companies getting rid of toxic fillers. Why are they in there in the first place? Can you provide that information, because I have yet to know a reason why they are in there. I am being completely serious.

Before I provide an answer for this, I think one thing should be considered. Why would multiple governments allow 'toxic' ingredients in vaccines. Governments are made up of people. These people who know what is in the vaccines, vaccinate their children. Are we to assume that they are knowingly and deliberately poisoning their children, repeatedly. Most doctors are aware of what is in vaccines, same again -- are they knowingly poisoning their children and patients. I know what is in vaccines and have known for years. I had my daughter vaccinated on schedule. Am I an evil uncaring mother for knowingly poisoning my daughter with 'toxins', call children services on me immediately. Perhaps, the 'toxic' additives to vaccines are not so toxic.

1. Formaldehyde:

Formaldehyde is used in the production of killed vaccines very early on in the process to inactivate the antigens. It is also used to kill unwanted viruses and bacteria that might contaminate the vaccine during production. Most of the formaldehyde is diluted out so only trace amounts are found in the final vaccine -- doesn't exceed 0.1 mg per dose and usually is much less than that. You seriously do not want unwanted pathogens in a vaccine.

Isn't formaldehyde embalming fluid? Yes, and nasty stuff that you wouldn't want to drink in large quantities

But

It is also made as part of our normal metabolism. It is an essential part of the amino acid synthesis pathway and makes up some components of DNA. At any given time, we have approximately 2.5 mg of formaldehyde in every liter of blood.

For a single vaccine, a child would get about 160 times less than the total amount their body naturally produces every single day

A two month old baby would get far more formaldehyde from being fed a bowl of mashed apples.

Formaldehyde also has a very short half-life, so is cleared rapidly from the body.

Formaldehyde in the body and vaccines are chemically identical.

2. Aluminum

Aluminum gels or salts of aluminum are added as adjuvants to help the vaccine stimulate a better response. Adjuvants help promote an earlier, more potent response, and more persistent immune response to the vaccine.

Aluminum has been used for 70 years in vaccines. Hundreds of millions have been given vaccines that contain aluminum. Adverse reactions have been noted at the injection site -- redness, inflammation, etc. -- as far as I know that's it. There have been some very rare skin reactions, nothing systemic.

Aluminum is found everywhere and the amount of aluminium we ingest on a daily basis is much larger than any vaccine dose.

Infant formula contains approximately 225 micrograms of aluminum per liter, breast milk has 4o.

A person who weighs 80 kg can safely ingest 100 mg of aluminum.

All vaccines contain less than one mg per dose and most are less than .50 mg. It is expelled from the body within 24 hours.

Aluminum is in the air, water, food, and many manufactured products.

There are no reports of aluminum toxicity from dietary sources, high intake of aluminum via antacids have not been reported to cause any adverse effects or neurotoxicity. If you inject aluminum directly into the brain of animals it does produce neurotoxicity. For humans, problems caused by aluminum occurs with dialysis because people on dialysis receive repeated doses of higher than normal aluminum levels in their dialysis fluid.

3. Mercury -- (thimersol):

Thimersol is a preservative that prevents the growth of dangerous bacteria and fungus.

It is used in flu vaccines, in multi-dose vials, to keep the vaccine free from contamination. This is important because each time you puncture a multi-use vial with a new needle, it provides the opporunity for bacteria to enter the vial. If one were to receive a contaminated vaccine -- that can have severe remifications including death. One can opt for thimerisol free flu shots these days.

It is also used during the production of some childhood vaccines to prevent the growth of microbes and most of it is removed during the process so there is only a trace.

In the USA, except for some flu vaccines, no recommended childhood vaccines contain thimersol, or the amount is close to zero.

There are two different compounds that contain mercury -- ethylmercury and methylmercury.

Ethylmercury is formed when the body breaks down thimersol. Ethylmercury is broken down by the body and cleared faster than methylmercury (half-life is 7 days).

Methylmercury is formed in the environment when mercury metal is present. It is present in some fish and food. High levels can harm the nervous system because it is not cleared from the body as fast as ethylmercury (half-life is 50 days).

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Toxicity is related to dose. Even water can be toxic. We can't avoid formaldehyde, aluminum or even mercury in the environment. From all the endless stuff that I have read about the 'toxins' in vaccines, none of the stuff seems to include dose related comparisons. It seems if it is toxic at some level,then it must be toxic at all levels which isn't true at all.

These chemicals are all present at extremely low concentrations in vaccines, certainly not at any dangerous levels. In short, even though 'antivaccinationists' would have us believe that vaccines are full of dangerous toxins, this is hugely misleading. These things are present in the environment at much greater levels -- to avoid them we would have to stop eating, breathing, and in the case of formaldehyde we would have to die to stop being exposed to it.

There are definite reasons why some people should avoid getting vaccinated. I think being ill and immune-compromised is a big one.

Now back to the original topic of this thread -- Do you think appropriate vaccines could prevent ME/CFS/SEID?

Only if a virus was identified as the cause for ME and they were able to isolate it properly and put it into a vaccine. Even if this were the case, it would be useless for those who already have ME because vaccines are preventative not curative.

 

[chipmunk1]

Except you don't know that these people 1) have h. pylori, or 2) are cured of it. It's a blind guess based on subjective reports from anonymous sources.

If someone does want to prove those treatments work, surely they can fund h. pylori mainstream testing and the natural treatments for a small group of patients. It doesn't require a medical degree, nor does it require much money. Trials of treatments usually do start very small, with just a few people or even a single case. .

there was a study on mastic gum for helicobacter pylori but it was small and sponsored by greek mastic gum producers i think.

Interesting that link mention goats make Vit C at 200 mg/kg each day so a goat weighing 60kg makes 12g per day! But on the flip side they can't recycle it or use it as efficiently as humans can.

primates and guinea pigs and other non-vitamin producing animals usually have a much higher natural vitamin c intake than we have.

I have taken Vitamin C in large doses and i did notice some mild positive effects but nothing that made it worth it.

Eating a lot of fresh fruits makes me feel a lot better though.

The only supplement that ever made a difference for me is Vitamin B12.

 

[Mij]

Mastic Gum does not eradicate h.pylori. I think there may be different strains so maybe people get some relief.from their symptoms.

http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/3/522.full.pdf

I had this infection for many years and when I was diagnosed I took triple therapy and even then I wasn't sure it was completely eradicated. It's not a guessing game for treatment with natural supplementation. This infection can caused stomach cancer 15yrs down the road if not properly treated.

 

[Snow Leopard]

Babies have died from whooping cough because of people not getting vaccinated. Several where I live.

In the same way that people claim the trigger of my illness (Guillain-Barre-like acute flaccid paralysis) was somehow incredibly coincidental, but somehow not due to the vaccine I had a few weeks earlier... It is debatable whether the increased incidence of Pertussis is due to any recent trend of people opting out of vaccinations, based on the following recent epidemiological study:

"A Change in Vaccine Efficacy and Duration of Protection Explains Recent Rises in Pertussis Incidence in the United States"
http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1004138

I believe that vaccines need to be decided on a case by case basis. Polio is basically wiped out and so is no longer justified. Pertussis on the other hand, is still prevalent so universal vaccination should continue to maintain herd immunity.

 

[barbc56]

This study had several hypothesis, one being that better reporting of pertussis explains the rise in the number of cases. The study showed that while this may be contributing to the rise in cases, it's not enough to explain the increasing number of cases. It's more likely this is happening because of the difference efficacy of the two types of vaccine plus the vaccine schedule.

increasing the rate at which disease is reported to NNDSS is not sufficient to explain the upsurge and 3) 2010–2012 disease incidence is predicted well. In this study, we use all available U.S. surveillance data to: 1) fit a set of mathematical models and determine which best explains these data and 2) determine the epidemiological and vaccine-related parameter values of this model. We find evidence of a difference in efficacy and duration of protection between the two vaccine types, wP and aP (aP efficacy and duration lower than wP). Future refinement of the model presented here will allow for an exploration of alternative vaccination strategies such as different age-spacings, further booster doses, and cocooning

.

If people aren't vaccinated this means that others who are vaccinated are more likely to get pertussis because of the above problems with the vaccine and when it's given. The development of a better vaccine would help but in the meantime the usual schedule of boosters needs to change.

These factors mean herd immunity is even more important. Infants can't be vaccinated and the mortality rate is higher than those who are older can't be vaccinated until a later age.

There are still places in the world where polio is occuring which means the vaccination is still needed.

As an aside, when getting vaccinated, at least for the flu shot, you are now asked if you have ever had Gullian Barre syndrome.

Barb

 

[duncan]

I think it would be great if a vaccine were introduced that could prevent ME/CFS. I'm sure many would take advantage of it.

I would be against mandating it.

 

[Mij]

But wouldn't the vaccine have to be antigen specific? We all became ill from different viruses etc.

 

[duncan]

@Mij I am not sure if your question is directed toward me.

My answer would be that if ME/CFS is a state that can be reached from multiple sources, e.g., infections, then the answer might be yes. Certainly I would imagine so. Even then things like herd immunity might not apply - for example, the current Lyme vaccine solution kills Borrelia in tick midgut; it has nothing to do with building up human immunity. Also, this would not account for other insults that result in ME/CFS, like vaccines or other trauma.

Not sure if the answer is the same for something like triggering an autoimmune illness or immune dysfunction, but by definition I think it holds true - you are preventing that immune failure before it happens. Not sure about a retrovirus, either.

 

[redaxe]

But wouldn't the vaccine have to be antigen specific? We all became ill from different viruses etc.

Well yes but there are a handful of viruses that are very closely associated with CFS/ME or are at least found or suspected of causing persistent infections. I mentioned some of these on the first post but EBV, HHV6 and CMV seems to be the unholy trinity.
We still can't conclude that those 3 viruses are the initial cause CFS/ME but we can say that many of us have highly elevated antibodies to those viruses and many of us also improve substantially when given antivirals against those viruses. But not everyone does benefit that much from antivirals which is probably because some people just can't handle the toxicity and secondly the current antivirals just aren't that effective in suppressing a smoldering infection. We need better antivirals.

There's enough evidence to start connecting the dots I think but it's been held up by lack of research money and that CFS/ME is such a heterogenous condition that EBV/HHV6/CMV is probably still a subset.


An EBV vaccine has been researched to some extent as it is associated with a lot of diseases. CMV and HHV6 haven't made anywhere near the same degree of progress.

Apparently there are some issues with developing an EBV vaccine and it looks like that has been a factor in holding back further development.
I suspect one because nearly every adult is infected it is hard to find individuals that haven't been exposed to the virus for testing. And I don't think we have enough knowledge about it to apply it to animal models either.

 

[lansbergen]

Polio is basically wiped out and so is no longer justified.

I would not stop polio vacination. Polio wild virus is kept in labs. Imagine what can happen when it escapes from a lab and nobody is vacinated.

 

[Mij]

They are in the process of developing an MS vaccine.

http://multiplesclerosisnewstoday.c...veloped-baylor-institute-immunology-research/

 

[redaxe]

They trialled a form of EBV vaccine with some success in Australia for MS

http://www.msaustralia.org.au/news/queensland-researchers-make-major-breakthrough-ms-treatment

The treatment involves collecting immune cells known as T cells from the patient’s blood, growing them in the laboratory with an EBV vaccine and then transferring the cells back to the patient by intravenous infusion. - See more at: http://www.msaustralia.org.au/news/...reakthrough-ms-treatment#sthash.jxFZzQUw.dpuf

 

[Mij]

I believe I fit into the 'hit and run' theory of M.E, so I don't think an antigen specific vaccine would do me any good for my particular case.

What do you all think? I had a sudden viral onset but I don't think I was ever tested for viruses at that time.

 

[barbc56]

I didn't realize how bad the polio epidemic is in Pakistan. The was written this past January so don't know if things have improved.

In 2014, Pakistan recorded its highest number of cases of any country in the world, and also the highest number since it began its eradication campaign 15 years ago. There were 297, and epidemiologists estimate that there are 200 undetected infections for every case that is diagnosed

http://www.wired.com/2015/01/polio-erad-2015/

The MS vaccine sounds intriguing. I wonder if a different vaccine would be needed for progressive vs. relasping/remitting MS. My stepmom has RR MS and is actually doing fairly well, relatively speaking. She has had it almost 20 years. As a fascinating aside she grew up in a very small town. Of the 45 who graduated in her high school class, eight have MS. Unfortunately, some have/had the rapidly progressing.

I would think this is an anomaly as I haven't heard of an outbreak or cluster of MS. I should look into this.

Thanks @Mij @redaxe

Barb