Do you think appropriate vaccines could prevent ME/CFS/SEID

[msf]

What I think would be helpful (not just on PR, but anywhere where things are debated) would be for slightly more tolerance to be shown towards people who are trying to get their point across. Arguments, by their very nature, are often imperfect, and it doesn't necessarily mean that the arguer is racist/sexist. etc.

 

[chipmunk1]

just found this. some claim that 50% of americans believe in some kind of conspiracy theory.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-believe-in-some-conspiracy-theory-heres-why/

 

[Ian]

The situations with vaccines is something like this.

You've got companies that are allowed to hold monopoly positions, so they can charge whatever they want (MMR).

The 1986 vaccine law was passed that gave vaccine companies immunity from liability. The 2011 supreme court decision cemented this. So companies are absolutely free to kill and injury people and there is nothing you can do about it.

You've got the media whipping up a scare about measles in Disney land, in which at least a 3rd were vaccinated anyway, and in which no one died. Now with this they are pushing mandatory vaccination for schools. This is just a dream come true for companies, mandated products, monopoly position, free from liability. A thinking person would conclude this is hopelessly insane.

You've got a media which takes billions of dollars annually from the pharmaceutical industry. They simply will not cover key issues or stories, and will basically parrot anything.

Then you've got whistleblowers coming out of the wood work. Mercks own employees taking lawsuits out against the company saying they faked various data for safety and efficacy. Merk had to prove the vaccine was a certain % effective in order to keep their monopoly position for MMR. So they just faked the data.

Then you've a top CDC employe who was involved in a key autism study who said, yes they found and link and they removed the kids that would have shown an association to make the link go away. There were also the studies done in Denmark, which were equally hilarious, headed by a guy whos a wanted international criminal. I guess that really deserves it's own post.

So forgive me for being a 'conspiracy theorist' or whatever label you want to attach to it it, when it comes down to blind trust in a system that is geared to make profit.

 

[msf]

Hmm, you may be right that there are problems with the way vaccines are regulated, but that is quite different from saying that vaccines are ineffective, etc. Re: the regulation, the way big pharma is regulated in general leaves a lot to be desired, so does that mean you are against antibiotics and chemotherapy too?

 

[sscobalt93]

Hmm, you may be right that there are problems with the way vaccines are regulated, but that is quite different from saying that vaccines are ineffective, etc. Re: the regulation, the way big pharma is regulated in general leaves a lot to be desired, so does that mean you are against antibiotics and chemotherapy too?

I am very against antibiotcs and chemo. There are doctors who even state chemo is ineffective.

Antibiotics are causing high numbers of resistant bacteria. Making super bugs. Therefore we have to make another more potent antibiotic that can cause more damage to the body. Antibiotics lower the immune system. I think antibiotics should only be used as a last resort(as should all western medications). Oregano oil, Olive leaf extract, Samento, Garlic, Ginger, Cinnamon, Lactoferrin all posess very potent antibacterial properties that strengthen the immune system. In my belief it also makes your body less likely from being reinfected.

 

[msf]

The idea that 'natural is best' seems to ignore the fact that some antibiotics are natural.

 

[IreneF]

@sscobalt93, can you explain how antibiotics weaken the immune system, and how those other substances you mentioned strengthen it?

 

[redaxe]

The idea that 'natural is best' seems to ignore the fact that some antibiotics are natural.

Yeah I don't get this whole 'natural' buzzword. Look - some of the most dangerous poisons known to man are natural... think trichothocenes, aresenic, cyanide....
With antibiotics there is some concern that they certain types can damage mitochondria. After-all mitochondria are basically bacteria.....
Fortunately though this effect may be prevented with N-Acetyl Cysteine.

But I was hoping this discussion wouldn't degenerate into a argument about the safety of vaccination but given that some people's illness seems to have been associated with the use of a vaccine I guess that is unavoidable. I don't think we should judge peoples experiences on that.
That said I'm also not in favour of wild conspiracy theories etc.... Before someone shouts out against 'Big Pharma' lets not forget that vitamin companies push their products onto the public as aggressively as drug companies do and it is Big Pharma that gave us Valcyte, Rituximab....
I don't think any of the people who were successfully treated by Rituximab or Valcyte would give those medicines up to go back on Garlic, Ginger and Curcumin....

However if there is a problem from a vaccine than so long as the quality of the product itself is not in question I don't think its the vaccine that is causing the problem, It's your immune system.
If you get a autoimmune or inflammatory reaction from a tetanus jab or a HPV vaccine how do you know you wouldn't have the same reaction if you got infected by tetanus or HPV.... Lets remember that Dr Jose Montoya at the 2014 Stanford Symposium stated that the cytokine profiles of CFS look very similar to a patient with SIRS. SIRS has a ranged of known causes both infectious & non-infectious.

And most people with CFS/ME report a flu-like onset of the illness but the illness is sustained because your immune system is not working properly.
Maybe this can be tied back to the latent virus theory. If herpes viruses like EBV, CMV or HHV6 are quietly replicating in and infecting our immune cells maybe that is a part of the problem. Hence getting back to the original post that if we are vaccinated against these viruses from the beginning maybe that would reduce the prevalence of us harbouring these viruses in our neurons or immune cells which means for a healthier and more functional immune system all round???

Another theory has been proposed for the higher rates of MS in the Western world and that is the higher level of sanitation and hygiene may reduce the spread of EBV across the population which would tend to infect children at an older age. It's no question that if you get EBV as a 18 month old baby you can usually throw it off with no more than a cold but if you get it as a 16 year old your probably going to get mononucleosis. And from there you have a much higher risk of developing ME/CFS or Multiple Sclerosis.... That might have something to do with declining numbers of CD8+ cells with age?

 

[sscobalt93]

@sscobalt93, can you explain how antibiotics weaken the immune system, and how those other substances you mentioned strengthen it?

Man made antibiotics kill off all bacteria. There is no selective bacteria, it gets rid of it all. Yes some target certain strains, but they kill off a lot of the huge gut flora. You gut flora is very important for your immune system. Without a good gut terrian you cannot be healthy. Natural antibiotcs are more selective such as garlic, ginger, cinnamon. I cannot say that organeo oil harms the gut flora, since it is a concentrated product I can almost imagine it will (to a lesser degree) harm the probiotic flora. Garlic is a great natural antibiotic and it is a prebiotic. It is good for gut health in general. As is the other herbs. You don't seeing people get C Diff using natural antibiotcs like you do people using conventional abx.

Yeah I don't get this whole 'natural' buzzword. Look - some of the most dangerous poisons known to man are natural... think trichothocenes, aresenic, cyanide....
With antibiotics there is some concern that they certain types can damage mitochondria. After-all mitochondria are basically bacteria.....
Fortunately though this effect may be prevented with N-Acetyl Cysteine.

But I was hoping this discussion wouldn't degenerate into a argument about the safety of vaccination but given that some people's illness seems to have been associated with the use of a vaccine I guess that is unavoidable. I don't think we should judge peoples experiences on that.
That said I'm also not in favour of wild conspiracy theories etc.... Before someone shouts out against 'Big Pharma' lets not forget that vitamin companies push their products onto the public as aggressively as drug companies do and it is Big Pharma that gave us Valcyte, Rituximab....
I don't think any of the people who were successfully treated by Rituximab or Valcyte would give those medicines up to go back on Garlic, Ginger and Curcumin....

However if there is a problem from a vaccine than so long as the quality of the product itself is not in question I don't think its the vaccine that is causing the problem, It's your immune system.
If you get a autoimmune or inflammatory reaction from a tetanus jab or a HPV vaccine how do you know you wouldn't have the same reaction if you got infected by tetanus or HPV.... Lets remember that Dr Jose Montoya at the 2014 Stanford Symposium stated that the cytokine profiles of CFS look very similar to a patient with SIRS. SIRS has a ranged of known causes both infectious & non-infectious.

And most people with CFS/ME report a flu-like onset of the illness but the illness is sustained because your immune system is not working properly.
Maybe this can be tied back to the latent virus theory. If herpes viruses like EBV, CMV or HHV6 are quietly replicating in and infecting our immune cells maybe that is a part of the problem. Hence getting back to the original post that if we are vaccinated against these viruses from the beginning maybe that would reduce the prevalence of us harbouring these viruses in our neurons or immune cells which means for a healthier and more functional immune system all round???

Another theory has been proposed for the higher rates of MS in the Western world and that is the higher level of sanitation and hygiene may reduce the spread of EBV across the population which would tend to infect children at an older age. It's no question that if you get EBV as a 18 month old baby you can usually throw it off with no more than a cold but if you get it as a 16 year old your probably going to get mononucleosis. And from there you have a much higher risk of developing ME/CFS or Multiple Sclerosis.... That might have something to do with declining numbers of CD8+ cells with age?

You are right that these natural antibiotics such as garlic, ginger, cinnamon and cayenne will not cure bad infections, but things like a strep throat and other minor viruses may very well be treated more naturally than having to take a conventional antibiotic. But there are also powerful antibiotics out there that are natural. If there were more studies conducted on these natural antibiotics I am almost certain there would be a good outcome with them. Anecdotal reports with natural products are all we have right now. Because there is no money to be made from them. I personally know a few people who use Oregano Oil for any infection they encounter and yield great results. Conventional abx cause so much damage to the GI tract they should not ever be the first line of defense in the medical community(IMO) i wish there were more integrated doctors out there. Luckily it is a big movement and I am sure within the next 10 years there will be just as many integrative doctors as there are conventional doctors. I mean LLMD's for the most part are integrative. And with Lyme on a rise, it's only a matter of time before more doctors become LLMD's and become more integrative. Well at least I hope so.

Vaccines could be completely worth it, but the reason they are not trusted is because of the toxic fillers used. So this is why I am against them. Also there is going to be some risk for people with compromised immune systems. The dead virus or modified virus could cause some serious issues to them, and some people are not diagnosed with immune disorders so there is a risk with it. I guess just like anything though.

Why would you need aluminum in a vaccine? Or mercury? Or formaldehyde? I have even read about human DNA from aborted fetuses in them! I watched a documentary on aborted fetuses and the things they use them for is so inhumane you wouldn't believe half of the things the use them for. Its sad. But that's another topic...

 

[lansbergen]

Man made antibiotics kill off all bacteria.

You want me to believe all antibiotics work the same way? Where did you get the idea bacteriostatic antibiotics kill bacteria?

 

[IreneF]

Man made antibiotics kill off all bacteria. There is no selective bacteria, it gets rid of it all. Yes some target certain strains, but they kill off a lot of the huge gut flora. You gut flora is very important for your immune system. Without a good gut terrian you cannot be healthy. Natural antibiotcs are more selective such as garlic, ginger, cinnamon. I cannot say that organeo oil harms the gut flora, since it is a concentrated product I can almost imagine it will (to a lesser degree) harm the probiotic flora. Garlic is a great natural antibiotic and it is a prebiotic. It is good for gut health in general. As is the other herbs. You don't seeing people get C Diff using natural antibiotcs like you do people using conventional abx.



You are right that these natural antibiotics such as garlic, ginger, cinnamon and cayenne will not cure bad infections, but things like a strep throat and other minor viruses may very well be treated more naturally than having to take a conventional antibiotic. But there are also powerful antibiotics out there that are natural. If there were more studies conducted on these natural antibiotics I am almost certain there would be a good outcome with them. Anecdotal reports with natural products are all we have right now. Because there is no money to be made from them. I personally know a few people who use Oregano Oil for any infection they encounter and yield great results. Conventional abx cause so much damage to the GI tract they should not ever be the first line of defense in the medical community(IMO) i wish there were more integrated doctors out there. Luckily it is a big movement and I am sure within the next 10 years there will be just as many integrative doctors as there are conventional doctors. I mean LLMD's for the most part are integrative. And with Lyme on a rise, it's only a matter of time before more doctors become LLMD's and become more integrative. Well at least I hope so.

Vaccines could be completely worth it, but the reason they are not trusted is because of the toxic fillers used. So this is why I am against them. Also there is going to be some risk for people with compromised immune systems. The dead virus or modified virus could cause some serious issues to them, and some people are not diagnosed with immune disorders so there is a risk with it. I guess just like anything though.

Why would you need aluminum in a vaccine? Or mercury? Or formaldehyde? I have even read about human DNA from aborted fetuses in them! I watched a documentary on aborted fetuses and the things they use them for is so inhumane you wouldn't believe half of the things the use them for. Its sad. But that's another topic...

So how do natural antibiotics work?

 

[IreneF]

You want me to believe all antibiotics work the same way? Where did you get the idea bacteriostatic antibiotics kill bacteria?

If all antibiotics worked in the same way, we'd just need one kind.

 

[Wayne]

This one gives a bit more context:

In the spirit of balance, in 2002, the journal Lancet apparently published compelling evidence that polio vaccine, contaminated with the SV40 virus, was responsible for up to half of the 55,000 non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma cases that were occurring each year. That link between the SV40 virus and human cancer wasn’t discovered until 40 years after mass polio vaccinations began.

My question is; what are we going to find out in the next 40 years about any of the rapidly increasing number of vaccines that are currently being rushed to market? All the more worrisome when it's enshrined into law that vaccine manufacturers have no liability whatsoever for any unsafe vaccines that harm people.

 

[msf]

I think you are right, there should be tighter regulations for vaccines - again, this does not mean that all vaccines are bad.

 

[msf]

Sorry for drawing the debate away from ME Redaxe, but your question seemed to be the same as: does ME have an infectious trigger/is it an infectious disease? I think this has been discussed before, which is why I gave a one word answer to your question - yes, I think it would prevent most cases of ME.

 

[Ian]

I think you are right, there should be tighter regulations for vaccines - again, this does not mean that all vaccines are bad.

It doesn't mean they are good either. All vaccination means if that you will produce antibodies against a disease. This is very different from cell mediated immunity. If you actually come into contact with a disease, immunity should last a life time. We know with vaccination, this is not the case, once the anti-bodies are gone you left with no protection. This is why endless booster shots are apparently needed.

In any case there is a leap in assumption that if antibodies are produced that this actually offers any kind of protection at all. What level of antibodies in the blood are needed for protection ? How long will they last at this level ? There are never clinical tests done to actually immunize people and then induce disease in them to see if it has actually worked. Heck, there are barely any studies at all that compare the vaccinated, with un-vaccinated. Apparently such studies are unethical, even though they could easily be done.

The flu shot probably deserves a special mention. After the big fuss about thiomersal or mercury in shots the CDC recommended that pediatric vaccines have the mercury removed. And it was removed, and as far as the general public were concerned that was the end of the story. And since the levels of autism had continued to rise ??? it couldn't have been the mercury. The problem was the at the same time as removing the mercury from pediatric shots, they added the flu shot to the recommended schedule. Each flu shot contains 25 micrograms of ethyl mercury. Now there is absolutely no reason to add thiomersal to shots, it's only there to save money so that shots can be multi-dose. There is a great deal of evidence, animal studies etc to prove that thiomersal is profoundly toxic, and is more than capable of causing brain damage and all kinds of problems in people. Why won't they remove it? But why give recommend this shot at all. They literally just guess what viruses you might apparently need protection from.

 

[redaxe]

In the spirit of balance, in 2002, the journal Lancet apparently published compelling evidence that polio vaccine, contaminated with the SV40 virus, was apparently responsible for up to half of the 55,000 non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma cases that were occurring each year. That link between the SV40 virus and human cancer wasn’t discovered until 40 years after mass polio vaccinations began.

My question is; what are we going to find out in the next 40 years about any of the rapidly increasing number of vaccines that are currently being rushed to market? All the more worrisome when it's enshrined into law that vaccine manufacturers have no liability whatsoever for any unsafe vaccines that harm people.

I think with our current level of technology that risk should become negligible as genomic sequencing is now so good that we should be able to identify potential contaminants so the risks now shouldn't be as high as 50 year ago.

If you look back into the past you'll dig up mistakes in every field of enterprise (many fatal) that humans have engaged in - that hasn't stopped us from still continuing in those endeavours. Unfortunately humans as a species are mostly reactive to risk management and not proactive. Take the Titanic for instance- It took the sinking of that ship to provide the impetus for stricter maritime regulations to be enforced so as a consequence maritime safety improved enormously. Same with Chenobyl.... Nuclear power is now much safer..... The countless aviation disasters through the last century have made air travel very safe...
Then on the issue of medicine you could argue that in the 1600-1800s having a baby delivered by a doctor could kill your baby as in those days doctors didn't believe in washing hands.... but you can't apply that logic today.

Pharmaceuticals has had the same stories particularly because it has evolved so much over the past 200 years and the pace of technology has often outpaced our understanding of the risks of technology.
There's been issues with aspectic quality, the need for seals to provide evidence of product tampering, chirality was another issue.....
Consider the regulatory requirements that the industry has to go through now just to get drugs though. In on sense you could say it's possibly gone too far as the number of trials that drugs have to go through to get approval holds things up for years.
For instance there was a case of a boy being denied compassionate use of Brincidofovir.... And that drug could be a game changer for ME/CFS but we can't get access it.....

And then the case for us, regulation has made society so adverse to risk that that has had an impact on the medical community as doctors are adverse to taking risks on patient treatment. This probably why most doctors are content with giving CFS/ME patients prozac.... it's within their comfort zone...
Then there is the process of getting drugs through the FDA is very costly and difficult so many drugs with multiple uses are being used off-label for other conditions etc which muddles things even more...

 

[redaxe]

In any case there is a leap in assumption that if antibodies are produced that this actually offers any kind of protection at all. What level of antibodies in the blood are needed for protection ? How long will they last at this level ? There are never clinical tests done to actually immunize people and then induce disease in them to see if it has actually worked. Heck, there are barely any studies at all that compare the vaccinated, with un-vaccinated. Apparently such studies are unethical, even though they could easily be done.

A course of high school biology would teach that once your immune system finds a pathogen it stimulates the generation of new B cells to produce antibodies against that organism. Some of those B cells differentiate into Plasma cells which provide primary antibodies to clear the infection, whilst other B cells will differentiate into Memory B cells which provide long term immunity.
So those Memory cells are able to generate a specific antibody to fight the infection should it return using a secondary immune response which is much stronger than the initial primary response.
A vaccine simply puts your immune system through the weaker primary immune response so if you get exposed to that infection you can jump straight to the stronger secondary response.

Yes your immune system can lose that memory over time but the principle of herd immunity is that you don't need 100% vaccination rates to keep infections suppressed so long as a significant proportion of the population is protected. And yes some viruses mutate very rapidly such as the cold virus and the flu virus and a vaccine would have only limited or temporary use there. And as there can be multiple flu's the vaccine might not cover all the strains in circulation. Simpy put that's why we don't have an easy vaccine for HIV.

 

[chipmunk1]

Same with Chenobyl.... Nuclear power is now much safer..... .

I think the problem with nuclear power is not that there are frequent problems but that if even a single accident occurs at the wrong place consequences can be devastating.

as for pharmaceuticals,i think they are still semi-safe. There are still a lot of drug recalls and drugs being taken from the market because they turned out to be unsafe. I took a drug a few years ago that was later recalled because it caused organ failures in some cases. This is not always a 'scientific' problem. Sometimes the adverse effects were well known beforehand but the drug manufacturer choose to hide the evidence. I also read a lot of people reporting that a drug permanently damaged their health but officially little is known about these type of reactions.

 

[lansbergen]

A course of high school biology would teach that once your immune system finds a pathogen it stimulates the generation of new B cells to produce antibodies against that organism. Some of those B cells differentiate into Plasma cells which provide primary antibodies to clear the infection, whilst other B cells will differentiate into Memory B cells which provide long term immunity.
So those Memory cells are able to generate a specific antibody to fight the infection should it return using a secondary immune response which is much stronger than the initial primary response.
A vaccine simply puts your immune system through the weaker primary immune response so if you get exposed to that infection you can jump straight to the stronger secondary response.

Yes your immune system can lose that memory over time but the principle of herd immunity is that you don't need 100% vaccination rates to keep infections suppressed so long as a significant proportion of the population is protected. And yes some viruses mutate very rapidly such as the cold virus and the flu virus and a vaccine would have only limited or temporary use there. And as there can be multiple flu's the vaccine might not cover all the strains in circulation. Simpy put that's why we don't have an easy vaccine for HIV.

In other words vacccinations prime the immunesystem and as long as there are wild viruses circulating the herd will be protected by immune boosting from exposion to the wild viruses.