Do you think appropriate vaccines could prevent ME/CFS/SEID

[JaimeS]

By the way, one of the things that puts me off conspiracy theories, apart from the complete lack of evidence and sometimes even rationality, is their parochialism - it's all about the US government! I find this to be just another facet of the US belief in it's own 'exceptionalism.'

Whoa, msf - let's not put all our fruit in one basket.

-J

 

[sscobalt93]

You won't believe conspiracies but you will believe the news and the newspaper as if they say the truth. Fox News has been shown to lie about most of their reports anyways...

For example on the news they said there was an Isis flag at a gay pride parade. It was actually sex toys on a flag...

 

[JaimeS]

You don't have to believe it, but have you even read about it? It's all over the Internet. Yes don't believe everything you read on the Internet but also don't believe everything that's on the news

How about we don't believe everything the news tells us OR everything the internet has to say?

For example on the news they said there was an Isis flag at a gay pride parade. It was actually sex toys on a flag...

...sounds like Fox, all right.

-J

 

[msf]

Do you mean tar everyone with the same brush? I don't know that expression. I thought about saying the belief that some americans seem to have, but I felt lazy.

 

[Wayne]

Hmm, I would still go for the Ebola vaccine, since it would (presumably) have been shown to confer immunity against Ebola - after all, prevention is better than cure.

I can understand why somebody would choose to vaccinate, and would support anybody's right to make that decision. What I have a problem with is the government forcing families to vaccinate whether they want to or not. That in my mind is criminal.

To focus in on your using the term "presumably". That actually might be a big presumption to make, as I've seen many references that the Gardasil vaccination has NEVER been proven to work. I'm not educated enough to determine whether that's true or not, but I do know it's true that many have died from taking the Gardasil vaccination, and tens of thousands have been injured, many permanently with CFS like symptoms.

 

[Valentijn]

You won't believe conspiracies but you will believe the news and the newspaper as if they say the truth. Fox News has been shown to lie about most of their reports anyways...

Who said anything about believing everything in the news? And how does Fox lying prove the existence of other conspiracies by completely different entities?

 

[JaimeS]

Do you mean tar everyone with the same brush? I don't know that expression. I thought about saying the belief that some americans seem to have, but I felt lazy.

...lazy like an American is lazy....

 

[sscobalt93]

Who said anything about believing everything in the news? And how does Fox lying prove the existence of other conspiracies by completely different entities?

It not but FOX and the news are corporations ran with a money driven attitude. People that supply facts online are doing it to better the people and get them to wake up and realize everything isn't as bright and happy as it portrays to be. I mean clearly there's thing wrong in America. The riots, the corruption. How can you not at least try to look into conspiracies?

 

[msf]

I don't know how to be non-patronising here, and I guess we are getting into politics, so I will just say once more that vaccines are one of the reasons why life expectancy has increased so much in the last 100 years, and distrust of them is a First World luxury (the Pakistanis who distrust them sometimes end up losing their children, but First Worlders can rely on that fact that most people do allow their children to be vaccinated).

 

[JaimeS]

Who said anything about believing everything in the news? And how does Fox lying prove the existence of other conspiracies by completely different entities?

Valentjin, Fox here is clearly a social metaphor for poop.

-J

[Edit: is in a very silly mood....]

 

[SOC]

Do you mean tar everyone with the same brush? I don't know that expression. I thought about saying the belief that some americans seem to have, but I felt lazy.

How about if we just avoid religious/racial/ethnic/national generalizations altogether? They rarely have any truth and tend to be offensive to the vast majority of the group that doesn't fit the generalization.

 

[Wayne]

Well, I've been trying to log off for quite a while now, only to be alerted by "new alerts". I think I'm about done in for the moment however, so will check back another time. See ya's....

 

[JaimeS]

I can understand why somebody would choose to vaccinate, and would support anybody's right to make that decision. What I have a problem with is the government forcing families to vaccinate whether they want to or not. That in my mind is criminal.

I do understand where you're coming from, @Wayne, but when some people choose not to get vaccinated, it means that they can catch and carry the illness. There will always be some people on whom the vaccination did not work very well in the first place / didn't 'take'. These people will also catch the illness because of those who didn't get vaccinated. The pathogen will then shift in order to become more resistant to whatever we use to fight it. That means the people who were vaccinated can now get the (altered) illness.

Then, Armageddon.

In all seriousness, we have a Tragedy of the Commons situation here. Everyone is doing what they feel is best for them personally, but it can have a dramatically negative effect on society as a whole.

And frankly, that's what laws are for.

*descends from soapbox*
*slides away*

-J

 

[msf]

Hmm, how about if I point out, as others have done, that some American's belief in their own exceptionalism isn't even exceptional in itself? Perhaps I should have said that conspiracy theorists, where ever they happen to live, often seem to be primarily interested in their own government's conspiracies, or in how the other governments conspire to threaten their own country/religious group/race.

I was just trying to explain why I don't find conspiracy theories (like those that sccobalt93 was suggesting) to be very convincing.

 

[chipmunk1]

i think the US has an above average number of conspiracy theorists and theories. At least that is the impression that i am getting from the outside. This stuff is virtually non-existent in many other countries.

 

[sscobalt93]

Probably because America has been failing as a society for many years.

Also when you put harmful things in vaccines and even our medications why would we trust it?

Fluoride in our water anyone?

Monsanto anyone?

Forcing parents to vaccinate their children anyone?

Police state anyone?

Watergate scandal anyone?

 

[Countrygirl]

"msf, post: 612333, member: 14104"]

Countrygirl, if the smallpox vaccine was ineffective, what do you put the eradication of smallpox down to?

Vaccination was not 'ineffective', but, according to all the literature spanning 250 years, frustratingly, there seems to be no evidence that vaccination played a major role in the eradication of smallpox as we have been led to believe. Vaccination while often not conferring immunity, caused a large number of child deaths and serious chronic illness and led to mass protests in the UK and a refusal to comply despite the term of imprisonment and heavy fines that were meted out as a punishment.

We can never know to what degree vaccination played a role in ridding the planet of the scourge of smallpox. It may even like many devastating infectious diseases, have naturally ceased to cause major epidemics. The evidence provided by the contemporary documents..................medical journals, reports of scores of high-ranking doctors and parliamentary papers ...................all tell the same story: mass vaccination against smallpox was a world-wide disaster. Its final eradication the evidence suggests was the result of a combination of factors: improved sanitation; improved nutrition; a policy of isolation as practised in Leicester; the predominance of variola minor after 1795 which created immunity to the more deadly variola major and, to an unknown degree, vaccination. Diseases were sometimes renamed, of course, to disguise new outbreaks after a vaccination campaign: cases of smallpox were relabeled chickenpox.

I had better quit as I am off topic....................

 

[IreneF]

I am completely against vaccinations. No reason to toy with out immune systems. Our bodies were not meant to deal with dead viruses or modified viruses in order to give immunity. Sadly it is what it is. Also the things they put in vaccines are not what I am interested in at all. They cause the issues. I have read that there is over a 1000 times more aluminum in the vaccine then there is the 'active' ingredient. I think these lipid coated viruses are more than mother nature, but that may be just me. The best things we can do to prevent this from happening is to eat healthy and to keep up a strong immune system.

Mother Nature's fix for malaria is sickle cell anemia. I think most people would prefer a vaccine.

 

[msf]

Countrygirl, your reference to Leicester and isolation was slightly misleading (possibly not intentionally):

'The global eradication effort, led by D.A. Henderson, originally used a strategy of mass vaccination campaigns to achieve 80% vaccine coverage in each country. This goal proved difficult to attain in many underdeveloped countries, but a serendipitous discovery led to a more effective strategy. Insufficient vaccine supplies in Nigeria led Dr. William Foege to try a strategy of aggressive case-finding, followed by vaccination of all known and possible contacts to seal off the outbreak from the rest of the population.5 This was the first time such a strategy was employed during the global smallpox eradication campaign, although it was also used in Leicester, England in the late 19th century.9 This strategy, known as surveillance-containment or ring vaccination, led to the disappearance of smallpox in eastern Nigeria even though the population coverage was less than 50%. The relative benefits of ring vaccination versus mass vaccination have been debated, but epidemiological evidence from Africa and Asia suggests that both lower population density and higher population vaccine coverage contributed to the elimination of transmission in many regions.'10

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1069029/

This account of the Leicester Method states that vaccination and isolation were used concurrently.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1082657/

 

[msf]

A couple of graphs for you: